Renaissance Man, Simon Cocking, From London to Asia, Central America to Ireland

[00:00:03] Speaker A: Welcome to Creative Places and Faces, the podcast that explores how places can affect our creativity and lives. Irish author Jackie de Berker interviews artists, authors and all sorts of creatives from around the world. Travel virtually and explore the world creatively. [00:00:30] Speaker B: Today's guest is a bit of a Renaissance man whose early working life involved travel writing, focusing on the Deep south and Central America. Since then he's been involved in music, sports, tech and the environment. Simon Cocking is the editor of Irish Tech News as well as being a very sought after keynote speaker and ICO advisor. Welcome, Simon. Thank you so much for being here today. [00:00:55] Speaker A: Thank you very much, Jackie. And that's a very flattering introduction. [00:01:00] Speaker B: Thank you. I wasn't even sure did I manage to cover everything in there. Shall we jump straight in? Quoting Steve Jobs in an interview, Simon, you said when you look back, it is easy to join up the dots for sure. Do you feel that that's true of places that have influenced you as much as the subjects that you've been drawn towards? [00:01:21] Speaker A: Yeah, look, I would say so. I think America is a big, messy package, but having spent a couple of years there, you can both love it and understand why other people hate it. And equally, my time in Spanish countries I do find useful because it can be quite nice to just rephrase things in Spanish rather than English. And then also in terms of Africa, they always say that once you spend time in Africa, you always plan to go back. So yeah, I'd agree with that question. [00:01:52] Speaker B: Okay, fantastic. And one of my favorite quotes, Simon, wherever you go becomes a part of you somehow. By Anita Desai. How do you feel about that quote again? [00:02:02] Speaker A: Yes, I would agree. As well as the States, I think time in Central America is really good to help you to contextualize things that are playing out. And I think we only become richer for doing that. I think if you spend time in Asia, then anyway it stops things being over simplistic reductions of us and them. And in most places I was in, they'd always say, be careful with people in the next village. They're dodgy people. And that would be true in Nicaragua and also in West Cork. So I think when you go to that next and realize they're not as bad as the people in the other village said they were, then you have a bigger perspective on it. [00:02:41] Speaker B: Definitely. So as I mentioned in the introduction, Simon, in my opinion, you're a bit of a Renaissance man. Looking back, can you choose the top five or six places that have become very important in your life and that you link to both Your creativity and activities. [00:02:58] Speaker A: Yeah, look, while that's a good question, I think it's a bit of a static and monolithic one as well, because while I could list five places, I think if we just. If I was to just keep thinking back to the year in Central America, well, that's 1992, and then that makes things a bit fossilized in sepia. So while those places were good, I think you have to keep moving on and laying down new memories, because otherwise you're like the footballer celebrating the one year and the one final that you played 25 years ago. So I think places are good, but I think at the same time, being in interesting places gives us a vocabulary to interpret and be open to new places. So, you know, I mean, I think before lockdown, I did go to South Korea and I turned down two invites to go, but I always wanted to go. So when. When the right invite came along, I relished it because I knew I wanted to go. And therefore that then became a new place in your mental context as well. So. So. So I know you're looking for five places, but. But at the same time, that feels a little bit static and unmoving. And I would have said Madrid. And. But then after leaving Madrid in 95, I didn't go back until I think it was about 2018 or 2017. So I hadn't been back in 22 years. At the same time, by having lived there for a year, I did want to go back, and I did what I was commissioned to do there, but then I went, I walked my way back from the Reina Sophia, where Guernica is, up past where we used to live, and it was all there. And similarly, I lived in Brighton, which again, would have been a big part of my mental map. But again, I haven't been to Brighton for probably, I don't know, 15 years too. But I feel that the day you step back there, your mental map from the train station down to the sea is all going to come back. So we have these places in mind, but at the same time, I think we need to stay open to the new places as well. So half an answer for you, I guess. [00:04:51] Speaker B: Okay. Well, no, I actually tend to absolutely agree with you there, Simon, and even more so, I suppose, because we've all been through lockdown, depending on where we are, varying degrees, I think we think about these things more and look forward to perhaps the next places that we will take on into our conscious and subconscious, if you like. [00:05:11] Speaker A: Yeah. So. So here's the thing, right? So. So So I did travel a lot and that. And then we had kids. And then in some ways, I felt that I didn't really go anywhere for what felt like the best part of a decade. And while I always used to read the travel section in the observer or whatever, I also stopped reading the travel section because at the time when I wasn't traveling, I felt that it was becoming almost mentally unhealthy to read about places that were just not on my horizon. And for a good decade, I felt that I barely went anywhere. And then in the last four or five years, it all opened up again, and then I was going to loads of places. So I think sometimes you can know maybe that you want to do things, but it's not necessarily the time. And again with lockdown, the last year prior to lockdown, you know, I was in Bordeaux and South Korean one, and then I realized quite quickly, we're about to have a baby. So we had a baby, but at the same time, soon after the baby, the restrictions kicked in, and therefore, it's like I haven't even been to Dublin for a year. But at the same time, I know that I was traveling a lot, and then things change. So I think it's both good to enjoy it when you do it and then recognize when you're not. Not to beat yourself up about it. [00:06:20] Speaker B: Definitely. Yeah, I would also agree with that. So in a sense, it's like we've been forced to calibrate our experiences that we' had through travel. Would you. Would you think that would be true for yourself? [00:06:31] Speaker A: Yeah, so it gives a great point of reference. And so similarly, we kind of rebooted and re explored our podcast. So, you know, in any given week, I could quite easily. On one hand, I might not see many people in person, but I will be speaking to people from California or Hong Kong or somewhere. So the fact that on one hand, I haven't been somewhere in a year on Versus, I have been to those places before. And therefore, like you were saying, the travel that you have done gives you the context to have these conversations with people and even perhaps to potentially riff on places that you've both been to, even though it wasn't in the last year. So, you know, I think we're always richer for having traveled almost, maybe both in the past and in the future, and then currently, maybe almost mentally as well, you know, for when we can't travel physically. [00:07:20] Speaker B: Definitely. Okay, so how would you describe your place in the world these days, Simon? Very much in terms of what you do and how you feel it's important to humankind. [00:07:31] Speaker A: On one hand, I'd say it's not important at all. You know, like, I think that's, you know, that's, that's the problem, is it? That's, that's. Humanity keeps trying to make the world bend to its will, and that's why we have the climate change issues that we do in another way, I guess. With Irish tech news, we did look to pivot into green tech, clean tech and tech for good. So therefore, in a way that we are trying to do things to help. If we see stories like we run from the Tyndall center yesterday about an innovative cure for colon cancer, so I think if we can do our bit to shine a light on positive and innovative solutions that help both the planet and people, then I think that is a way that we can do some good. So therefore, rather than the eye, it's maybe what we're doing to help shine a light on positive stories. [00:08:23] Speaker B: Perfect. Okay, so let's trace the steps and the places along the way that might have contributed to who you are and where you actually are today. Simon, where did you grow up and how did this environment influence you? [00:08:36] Speaker A: Yeah, so I grew up in London and I grew up in West London. And I was thinking about this in a different context, but in terms of being white, I'd say that was probably about a quarter of the class. So we had Indians that were bussed over from Southall to come to school where we were, and then we had quite a mix of people from all over the place. So I think in some ways it meant that it was just normal that not everybody looked like you, spoke like you and did things. And so without that being a conscious thing, I think that wasn't a bad way to start in primary school and secondary school was like that as well. It was very racially mixed and therefore it just wasn't really a thing. And then even to bring in some rent, my mum had lodgers and they would be from Nigeria, Ghana, all sorts. And so as kids, again, you would just have the latest two people living in the attic. It was a room. It wasn't. It wasn't brutal or anything. But then on his gun they might be cooking salted fish. And like, it didn't. Like, we weren't mad on the smell, but we realized that, you know, in other parts of the world you did different things with chicken and rice and fish. And therefore. And actually too, one of them had tb. So we were all whisked off to have TB injections several years before it was rolled out in the class. So, you know, our lodgers and our experience of the lodgers, I guess meant in some ways you almost felt a bit special that when everyone else had to have their TB jab, we didn't have to have it because we'd already had it. [00:10:14] Speaker B: Okay, so that sounds like quite an interesting background, Simon, in terms of, you know, the lodgers being there. You were quite young when you were absorbing that sort of difference of different cultures, the possibilities that surround that. [00:10:31] Speaker A: Yeah, you see. So I guess as a kid you're not really thinking about it. And then my dad worked in the Ministry of Agriculture, but he worked in, this is in the uk, maf, Food and Fisheries. He worked with, dealing with countries that were not in the EU but were looking to do relationships with them. So he would be in Pakistan, South America. He met Gorbachev and Gorbachev was the Agricultural Minister and brought him over to the UK to do discussions about agriculture. So, you know, it was almost a bit of a joke that he'd say, oh, the Bulgarians. And like he was a bit of a. But we all, we felt him as. We felt he's a bit of an annoying name dropper at the time, but I guess he was just. Yeah, you know, so, so, so, so we didn't, we weren't really impressed. We thought it was a bit tiresome. But at the same time, you know how it is as kids, you're hypercritical towards your parents, but it's probably also rubbing off towards them as well. [00:11:25] Speaker B: Yeah, definitely. So would you consider yourself as a child to have been creative, Simon? [00:11:34] Speaker A: Oh, I was awful at art. It was quite funny because when I came to Ireland, I got work on a community arts scheme because I was writing a novel in Madrid and I wanted to finish writing it. And my girlfriend at the time, we both moved to Dublin to come and house sit and we both went for interviews unbeknowingly at the same place. So we both came home and both said, oh, I've got a new job, I'm going to be a community artist on a community employment scheme. And then we realized it was the same place. So that was quite interesting. And therefore that project you had to work with community groups and I worked with Women's Aid and schools and I can't really draw. I'd say I'm the worst drawer in the family. The kids are all much better than me. But I realized to be creative, it's about conceiving an idea and getting it over the line. And then if someone Else draws better than you then put the pencil in their hand and make them do the drawing and then use source the materials and work around it. So therefore, definitely creative, but not creative in, like in art. I think I probably got a D or an E at school and I was advised very quickly not to do it as a subject. [00:12:46] Speaker B: Okay. But yeah, creativity, certainly. It's certainly not only about art. And I would agree with what you've said about it there. Were there any family members as you were growing up in school? Were there any family members or teachers that you remember as encouraging the talents that were coming to the, coming to the surface at that time? [00:13:07] Speaker A: Yeah, look, I think I've always been very lucky like that. And it's interesting because we, reflecting on this, on. So we have teenager boys who are 18 and are very argumentative and pushback about help. And I was, and I was thinking. But I've always had people, mentors who were really helpful to me in judo and good teachers in school. And I think it was because I was open to listening to what they had to say. And I think as an adult, if children are willing to learn an interest in what you have to say, you're going to give them more of your time to mentoring. Because nobody wants to mentor someone that keeps arguing about why your mentor isn't helpful. And so obviously I, I mean, and people would definitely say that, you know, I'm not, I'm not quiet about expressing my opinions, but at the same time, I think somehow I was also happy and complimented if, if people wanted to mentor me. And I would always try to listen first rather than tell them why I didn't agree. And, and from that I was very fortunate. I had a lot of great people give their time and mentor me. And I think therefore, if you can be open to people trying to help you, then you can actually be really helped. [00:14:20] Speaker B: Okay, so moving on, Simon, to family holidays. Given, you know, what you've talked about with lodgers and your dad's work and everything, did you have time as a family to go on holiday? And if so, where did you go? [00:14:34] Speaker A: Yeah, so. So my dad was pretty rubbish because he spent all year traveling. The last thing he wanted to do was go on holiday. So, you know, in some ways he, he was no help whatsoever. But my mom did want to travel, so my mom was like, well, well, I've been home with the kids all year, so you, you might have been all over the world, but I want to go. So what my mum. And initially, at the time, this is kind of Mad to even conceive. But back then there was. I think it was Club Cantabria. And we took organized holidays via bus to Greece, which must have been. I don't know how many days it was on the bus to get to Greece, because this was before cheap flights. Yeah. So we went to Corfu, but we got there via a boat and a ferry and a bus. And then we did skiing in Andorra, and again, that was by bus. So we did a couple of these. We'll get you there by bus holidays. And then she realized you could swap houses. And this was pretty cool. So we would like. And again, our house was basically sort of a two up, two down in London, although it had an attic, so it was. It was like a tardis. It was bigger on the inside than it looked on the outside. But. But our two up, two down was still so appealing to Americans in Minneapolis, San Francisco, San Diego, that each summer, every other summer for like about six years, we'd swap our house and we'd go and have five or six weeks in the US and the great thing about the house. What was. Well, one, we got this house that was four times the size of what we lived in. And again, America was always quite ahead in terms of consumables. So they'd often come with several cars, maybe a drivable tractor, like a drivable lawnmower that I'd be given at 12 or 14 to go and drive around. And so therefore, these house swaps would just plonk us in the middle of very interesting communities. And therefore, I thought that was a great way to do a holiday, that you weren't just a tourist in a hotel. You had. You had land dropped into, parachuted into this really interesting community in like, the Minneapolis one was great. And we went whitewater rafting. Being in San Francisco was pretty interesting, people telling you about the earthquakes that had happened. So I think, again, inadvertently, house swapping became a very great way to both have a holiday, but to also spend time in another culture. [00:16:50] Speaker B: Sure. Okay. Yeah. It's almost like we've been watching. Should I be saying this or not? We've been watching Rich House, Poor House. I don't know if you've seen that, where they swap over and it is like literally extracting somebody out of obviously, you know, not such a financially good life and putting them into something that is like high end. And it's almost like swapping over of lives at the same time. [00:17:14] Speaker A: Yeah, so. And so, so I know what you mean. And so I. So I had this thing where I was in the state school and. And people said you were posh. And then I got a scholarship and I went to a public school, which is a UK private school. And then everyone said, oh, you're from the ghetto. And it's like, well, well, I'm definitely not posh, and I'm not from the ghetto either, so. And then similarly with Sussex, Sussex was pretty good, but it was all right. It was nothing special. It wasn't Oxbridge. But then I got sent to Georgetown, which was basically Ivy League. And again, you kept having this pinging between different extremes of, you know, the people at Georgetown, the people at the public school. I mean, George Osborne was there now, a bit like Stalin. He was very quiet and said nothing, but went on to be deputy prime Minister. But you did spend time in the. But, like. Like, you know, like, these people were heiresses of, you know, they were really rich. So I think when, you know, you're not of one or the other, then you're kind of contextualizing and looking at things while remaining open to interacting with all of them. [00:18:16] Speaker B: Sure. And, of course, I'm sure your British accent at that stage would have been quite a novelty to them also, I assume. [00:18:24] Speaker A: Look, in the US it was kind of cool. It was almost like being famous simply for sounding different as kids. I think they got a kick out of that, and so did we. We kind of found it funny as well. [00:18:36] Speaker B: Okay, so you've mentioned, obviously, the two different places that you went to uni at that time, and then after university, you were working for let's Go Travel Guidebook, and you went to cover the Deep South. How did you connect with that environment and do you feel what you took away from it? Simon? [00:18:56] Speaker A: Okay, so the reason that happened was my. The girlfriend I had in Georgetown was from Alabama, and her best friend was at Harvard, and she also from Alabama. So long but long. The year before that, she was very much advocating that Alabama was a great place and it wasn't like the stereotypes and, you know, a bit like the Sweet Home Alabama song. There's a line in it, there's good people in Alabama. So in some ways, you know, she was on a mission to show me that Alabama wasn't just what you thought it was. So therefore, you know, she'd kind of been priming me for that before we even spent the summer doing that. So. And I guess again, a bit like neither being the posh one or the ghetto one. I think, you know, you go to these places with an open mind and places like Alabama and Mississippi. You know, while there are many valid things said about them at the same time, where we were, you could see that white people did live with and near and interact with black people, whereas on the East Coast, a lot of east coast liberals wouldn't actually have much interaction at the time. This would be in the 90s and before with black people. So you felt, you know, in some ways in the south, again, it's not perfect in any way, but, but lots of people there actually had real and meaningful relationships with people who weren't like themselves. Whereas in the east coast it was maybe more of an intellectual position that they held. [00:20:22] Speaker B: Okay, interesting. So in 1992, after that time in the Deep south, you, you also went off and you spent about a year or so in Central America where you lived for some time in Mexico City and also in Costa Rica. Tell us about those places, Simon. What did you take away from them? How were those experiences for you? [00:20:43] Speaker A: Yeah, look, so I loved it. First of all, I got out of college in the summer of 91, wasn't completely sure what to do, so I got a job in the civil service. I think it's about the only, the only time my dad managed to do something nepotistic for me. So he did get me a job as the office orderly. And so I worked for four to five months. My brother was there, he got offered a permanent job where I was like, no, this is not why I'm here. I'm here to get money to go away. So I worked four or five months, didn't take the permanent job, and then collected all the money on the Friday. And at the time Virgin, it was great. You could get 100 pound one way flight to New York. So I cashed in the money on the Monday, got £3,000 in cash out, walked very nervously across this 20 meters to get travelers checks, and on the Tuesday or the Wednesday, I bought and took my one way ticket to the US to get to the US to get across the us I went to Mardi Gras as a stop off in New Orleans and then I walked across the border into Mexico to do all of that. So I guess simply the working and my mum wasn't mad on me going, so she offered me money not to go. And I was like, well, I didn't spend five months working to just stay in London. I was like, oh, what would I do? No, no, thanks, but no, I'm going, you know, and therefore, you know, I got to Mexico with the idea that I had wanted to do this and I was Open to doing it. And you know, from there it was great. Like the train conductors were dancing on the train in the middle of the night. I don't know why they were dancing with the passengers as we drove to places where kids threw stones at the windows. And then I met these Scottish girls, so I thought, oh, this will be good. But they weren't really very interested in me. And there were two American girls chatting them up. And they weren't interested in the American guys either. But the American guy said, oh, well, how about you? Do you want to come back to Mexico City? So then he had this cool yellow open top sports car that he'd driven down from California. And we drove to Mexico City from it was Rauda de la Cortorce. It's the Holy 14. It was mountain town that we were in. And we got stopped on the edge of Mexico City by a traffic cop and we had to pay him a hundred dollars in bribes, otherwise he's going to take the car away. So my welcome to Mexico City was that we had to bribe the cop to even be allowed not to lose the car. And therefore it was like, this is all just mad interesting, surreal, but. But I wanted to see what it was like. And I knew that if I'd have stayed in the civil service, you didn't see that. So I guess that was a great entry point. And from that I got work in Mexico City and then we got work in Costa Rica. And Costa Rica, it was about five or six hours to either coast, the Pacific or the Atlantic. So you go surfing, you'd find a new beach. River Phoenix's family were there living out in one of the communities. You saw them, they ruled nuts. I was trying to work out that Joaquin might have been there too, because it was that age where they were still kids and they all hippie kids out in these places. But it was lovely. And therefore, you know, a lot of people would go down to Central America and spend time there. But by being based there, you could kind of use it as a launching pad to have a look. So, yeah, look, it was really good. And then my brother came over and the civil war had just finished in El Salvador and we, we just stuck him on a bus from Honduras and said, right, I know you flew to Honduras, but we're actually going to El Salvador. We just didn't tell you. And so we dragged him off to El Salvador for three weeks. And you know, like, everyone had machine guns and, you know, we accidentally stayed in a brothel because we didn't realize it was A brothel. But you could pay by the hour, use condoms outside the other doors. But we didn't realize until we'd already been there a few days. So, you know, you have to have that mixture of enthusiasm and naivety. And I got to say one more thing is that my Spanish was pretty rough. It was like Tarzan. But we chat to people and you'd ask them a question, and suddenly they'd roll up their T shirt and they'd show you bullet holes in their stomach because you'd inadvertently ask them a question. That meant that they said, yeah, look, this is what I was doing last year. I was in the army. So, you know, I think you learn from it, but you have to do those kind of things and then maybe look back and go, oh, maybe I should have been a bit more careful. [00:24:57] Speaker B: Definitely. But I was about to ask about your Spanish. So had you done Spanish? Had you learned Spanish or you just learned it kind of like in situ at that time? [00:25:06] Speaker A: Yeah. So back when I was at college in the US in my first semester, I did Spanish, and the teacher, me and my buddy, did it. She obviously didn't like us because I thought we were doing fine. And at the end of the semester, she gave me an F in Spanish. So this meant that in my second semester, I had to take an extra course to make up for the hole in having failed one of the courses. So I did, like, the first semester I did four subjects. The second I did five. So I had to do an extra course to make up for that. So I did quite enjoy the irony that eventually after. So after a year in Central America and then later on a year in Madrid, eventually in Dublin, Joaquin Cortez came over, and he was dating Imi Campbell. And I got the gig to be the translator for him and the band. So I just thought I'd love to go back and see my teacher that failed me years earlier. [00:25:55] Speaker B: Yeah, I can imagine. I can imagine. So what happened, Simon, to bring you back, you went back to the UK, didn't you, in 1993. What happened to, did you run out of work or family wanted you back home? How did you get back over to the uk, first of all? [00:26:11] Speaker A: Yeah, so none of that. Before I went away, I applied to do a Master's in Development studies in the UK and Bradford. And as soon as I got the offer, I immediately deferred it for a year. So I guess, like a lot of us do, I kept my options open. But I figured before doing development studies, it would make sense to actually spend time in developing Countries, as they were called at the time. So I was always coming back. But the idea was, was that I wanted to have spent time in Central America before I did. And I thought, you see, my concern was I would have just done four years, five years straight through in academia and I don't think that's the right way to learn about developing countries. So therefore, I guess I was kind of always toggling between real world experience, but then backed up because I did apply for a few jobs. So nobody was really interested if you didn't have the post grad as well. But I didn't want to just do the post grad without the experience. So I didn't even run out of money because I got work in Central America. I hadn't even spent all the travelers checks. I think I came back with about a third of them. So I think that's positive that you work and live as you go. Even by working, it's a valuable experience while you're away too. [00:27:26] Speaker B: Definitely. What kind of work were you doing while you were there, Simon? [00:27:30] Speaker A: Yeah, look, so back then TEFL was the best thing to do. It was really well paid and you see, otherwise you'd do bar work, but bar work would always be very smoky and having to listen to drunk people when you were sober. I far preferred that I would do the TEFL and then you would go out and socialize on your terms, but then not be stuck there all evening. [00:27:54] Speaker B: Sure, yeah, that makes a lot of sense. Okay, so when you went back to the uk, you were deeply involved in the anti Rhodes protest. What led to this, Simon? [00:28:05] Speaker A: Yeah, so look, I was thinking about this question and on one hand in the US we did Earth Day. So therefore, and my masters, I wanted it to be, I wanted, it was economics, but I wanted it to factor in environmental economics. But in some ways your question sounds very noble. Whereas the reality is that while I was away, my brothers were involved in the poll tax protest, they were involved in the anti roads. And so in 93, while I did go to road protests and there so is Twyford Downs and Newbury and they inspired the Irish Glen and the Downs. A more honest answer for 93 was, as well as doing that, I also played a lot of ultimate Frisbee and I won my first UK Nationals and that probably meant as much to me or more than the road protests. And then with my girlfriend, the American one who'd been Central America with, we went to India, we went to Turkey, we went to Holland. So the road protest, yes, it's really important and it's about. You see, I'd read a lot of Edward Abbey and direct action and direct protest. And so it's quite interesting that in the UK they'd also read this. This direct action manifesto by Edward Abby, and therefore they were trying to implement it in the uk, so. So I definitely was interested and I put some time on it and. And there were some surreal moments. Like, I read Naomi Klein's no Logo, and she describes an event that happened that I was at, but there were only 25 people at it and she wasn't there. So it was pretty surreal. It was like the M11 in one state, East London, and they were gonna. They knocked through people's houses, and people were built tunnels under the houses to stop them knocking it down, and they. They delayed the thing. And she describes that, but she wasn't even there. So it's kind of. It's kind of weird how things become described as fact by people that weren't necessarily there. And even though I was there, I wasn't particularly legitimate because I was there. But there are other people that there for months. Whereas I'd take the tube over from. You know. So, yes, environment's important, but it was. It's an element rather than, you know, I'm not going to claim more credit than other people did for it. [00:30:10] Speaker B: Okay, fair enough. That's. That's fair enough. Now, soon after that, Simon, you spent a couple of summers busking and fire juggling. What an adventure. Where did this start off? And where were you busking? [00:30:22] Speaker A: Yeah. So again, so it was the east coast of Spain the first summer, and then the north, so the east, Costa. Bravo. And then we did Galicia. But again. And this. This is also strategic. It was. It was my girlfriend that was the fire juggler. And we worked out that, you know, you made far more money if the. If a girl juggled fire. And she was about 5 foot, so she, you know, she just. And she had these kind of, you know, colored dungarees and she looked quite interesting. And so I would ask people in four to six languages for money at the end of the show. So it's all part of the busking. I gathered the money, but she was better at it than me and probably visually more interesting. But Spain's an interesting place. So in many Spanish towns, you have these places called Commodores. And Commodores are where you can get a meal, a free meal every day. And I think they'd be run by nuns or religious orders. So a lot of the travelers and buskers knew of these places. And would drop in there and you were allowed to go there. And then they would live, like, in deserted villages in the mountains. They'd come down for the festivals. So again, it was almost a bit like being an anthropologist that I was there and I was busking, but it wasn't my raison d'etre. But it was still very interesting to get a sense of how other people lived. And we broke even. So therefore we were sustaining ourselves. So interesting. And a great way to see Spain. [00:31:46] Speaker B: Definitely. And whereabouts in the Costa Bravo were you? [00:31:49] Speaker A: Yeah, so we kind of went up and down, and then we were down bar near Alicante. See, the good thing was, was in between the two summers, we then. We then decamped to Madrid and we had Madrid as a base where we taught during the term time, and we would use it. We went to Lafayes in Valencia and we went to San Fermine in Pamplona. So we strategically tried to get to the relevant festivals. Like the one I didn't get to is the Tomatino one, where they all throw tomatoes at each other. But we managed to. Yeah, you know, so. And again, I think Spain. Spain just has a. After Spain, we moved to Ireland. And Spain and Ireland have similar, maybe work, life approach that it's not all about work. So therefore, I think that's why the Spanish like Ireland. And similarly, I think that's why it's a lovely place to live. [00:32:40] Speaker B: It's interesting, yeah. I mean, because I'm halfway between Barcelona and Valencia, and obviously I'm Irish, but I think most people. People will get that from the accent. So I never draw that. I never drew that parallel before. But you're absolutely correct. Definitely we would have an outlook on life. Not unlike the Spanish, definitely. [00:32:59] Speaker A: Well, after I left Spain and came to Ireland, I then met a lot. So many Spanish people came to Ireland and they preferred to come to Ireland than England because they felt that there was more of a cultural bridge. [00:33:15] Speaker B: Yeah, definitely. I mean, when I was. When I was growing up, and we're taking the bus into town, so I was brought up around Dundrum and, you know, in the summer holidays, you take the bus into town with your friends, and the buses were always packed for the Spanish students. Always packed. It's just part. It was part and parcel, you know. So you settled in Dublin after quite a lot of years of adventure, around 1995, when you were there for about 20 years. So this connection to Dublin, I mean, you've mentioned sort of, you know, the feeling between the Spanish and the Irish, how Did that come about what led you to be there and actually to stay there for a significant amount of time? [00:33:56] Speaker A: Simon yeah, so in one way, it was more the other. So for eight years before that, it had been one year in each place for eight years. And therefore, you know, you come to realize that, like by leaving each place after around a year approximately, you would only, you'd have, like, we had friends in every place, and you make friends and you had a nice life in each place. But if you keep moving after a year, then it doesn't allow you to be able to do other things for a longer period of time. And therefore, unfortunately, it wasn't that I love Dublin, it was more, it was kind of time to get off, get off the bus in terms of that constant progression. And I had met some people that just kept moving and just kept traveling and were 20 years on the road. But I just felt that in some ways there's a slight emptiness to being in perpetual motion. And even within those years of traveling, I would feel that about three months would be about the most of changing town every day or two. And after three months you'd probably want to stop and spend longer in somewhere because it's just, you just get a bit jaded. You just start to long to cook your own food, always eat restaurant and hotel food. So both in the microcosm of those eight years and then also after that, it made sense to be somewhere. And then with Dublin and with the, with us both getting jobs in this creative place, it just became very interesting to be able. And also there were things that I was interested in doing in the 90s Dublin that weren't really being done. So there wasn't any ultimate Frisbee. And I was interested to see if, having played a lot to a high level in the uk, I wanted to be able to play in Ireland. And so one of the projects became to roll out and now it's in every Irish college. And we would do a lot of the freshers fairs and we began it in Trinity and ucd, dcu, dit, and then from there. So I guess staying in one place can enable you to do things that you can't do if you keep moving through. And then another one became. So that led to doing environmental education and doing the art. And again, my partner at the time was very into art and she was an artist, she'd been to art college, so she wanted to do that. And then I inadvertently got hired at the same place. But then I realized that it was quite possible to get grants from The Arts Council, if you didn't. A lot of people, if they got rejected once, would never apply again. Whereas I would aim to then go for coffee with the person that assessed my application and rejected me and asked them what I could do differently to get it next time. And I decided that if you got one in three times, then that was a win. And so, like, those seven or eight awards I got were based on about 20 applications, but I didn't stop. Whereas a lot of great artists, if they didn't get it the first or the second time, they'd say, the Arts Council doesn't understand my art, and they'd storm off in a flounce. Where it wasn't like that. It was more of a bureaucratic, you know, so you had to dial back the ego and do that. And therefore, you know, like, you can only ever apply every three to six months. So therefore, you know, being in one place enabled you to do bigger projects than if you just keep moving. [00:37:03] Speaker B: Sure. Okay. I mean, the word that comes to mind, Simon, as you're explaining all of the reasons to settle in one place is the word collaboration. [00:37:15] Speaker A: Yeah, definitely. And see, what was lovely was, was that at the time in that project, there were a lot of really interesting artists that had all been at NCAD but couldn't find any work. And so, like, some of these guys, their pictures are now in the National Concert Hall. They were all talented people, but they just needed a year or two of breathing space to be able to develop their art. And other ones have sculptures on the motorways and people did costume design. So, you know, it's one of those things where you just happen to be really fortunate to be around very interesting people who looked at things differently. And I guess you always win by being with people who are either smarter than you or do things in different ways to you. So I definitely felt that I was riding the wave on that one. And I think in some ways, though, like, what I brought to them was that I would say you got to put the stamp on the letter. It's all well and good having these ideas, but if we're just in the publisher talking about it, then that's as far as it will go. Whereas. And also, Keela were around then and they were quite interesting, and they were the people we worked with. The women formed a women's acapella band, and they began to support Keela and they did world music. And therefore, the travel meant that I would often give them ideas for songs based upon things that I'd listened to. So I Think there was collaboration and everyone was kind of open to trying things. [00:38:30] Speaker B: Okay. And it sounds a little bit like you can disagree, but feel free to disagree if you want. It sounds to me like you played the role of a facilitator. [00:38:40] Speaker A: Well, so the funny thing is that when I came to Ireland in the 90s, I felt that this word had been eaten, swallowed and regurgitated, like almost ad infinitum, because I used to hear facilitator so much. So it was definitely a buzzword then. So, yeah, look, I think we had facilitators. They had people that came in. But I guess what a good thing was was we had a weekly newsletter and the authorship, the editorship would be passed around, so everyone would be encouraged to curate and edit the newsletter. And equally, a bit like, was it Blue Peter? But whoever had a skill would have to teach the other people the skill. So, you know, somebody taught silk screen making, someone taught how to use the angle grinder and welding. And therefore there was work there to be a teacher if you could come up with something to teach the other people. So I think that was a really good way of teaching people how to learn, but also how to teach. And the teaching is a source of income. And a lot of artists realized that, that they complemented their work with teaching. So, yeah, I think we learned to facilitate, but then I think we all did. [00:39:51] Speaker B: Okay, fair enough. So in 1998, you spent a bit of time away from Dublin in Honduras, doing a mosaic environmental art residency and also some padi scuba dive master training. Now, in an interview, Simon, when you referred to this period of time, you said, every time you work with others, the final outcome is the result of a coalition of inputs, energies and ideas on the way things should be done. Let's talk about this. And also the importance of people's intentions towards the work and projects they're involved in. [00:40:27] Speaker A: Yeah, so it's true, and I agree with that. And so this is community art. And the thing about community art is it's a bit tricky. As an artist or as somebody, you have a vision of how it should look like and what it would look like and what you'd like it to look like. And because you've done mosaics before, you've learned from your mistakes. But every time you would do a community art project, whether it was a mural or a mosaic or something collaborative, you had to have this balance between surrendering slightly to a large amount what it was going to be like. Because if you're going to let other people be involved, it will generally go into places that aren't quite how it worked the last time. Now, the thing is that sometimes if you're also creating a public commission, then you don't want it to look crap at the end, so you have to kind of balance that one. But we worked out ways that we could do things like we do finger painting and we would do collage and stuff, so that everybody could still go away with an outlet of their expression and something they created. But then you would work out how do we make the final piece, also something that the sponsors are happy with and therefore you're spinning lots of plates, so it's more challenging, but at the same time it makes it quite interesting. And again, because my masters was in community development and aspects like that, I wasn't. So I think some artists would find it very hard to do community art because they want more control over the final outlook. But if you're aware that you're doing it for a wider process, then you can live with that much more. And at the same time, by collaboration, it's a bit like Linux and Open Source. If you allow things to be open, you might actually get things that are far better than you thought they would be if it's just you. So I think you do win by doing it, but at the same time you have to dial down your ego and be able to listen to what other people are suggesting. [00:42:23] Speaker B: Definitely, definitely. I touched on the subject of creativity within the environment with one or two of the guests that I had for Series one, which is based in Northern Ireland, and just in terms of like, the Troubles, which is, you know, a bit of a weird name for what happened in the north, obviously. How do you feel in your own experience, Simon? How do you feel about the road of creativity in terms of encouraging peace in those type of situations? [00:42:53] Speaker A: Yeah, so we had very direct involvement in that. That. In 95, our band, in our project in Dublin, had a band, Happy City, and Happy City were a samba drumming band. And so they got a lot of summer gigs playing at places where they wanted drumming, but they didn't want sectarian drumming. So my girlfriend was good in musical, but there was still space for people to play the Go Go bells and the rhythm sticks. So I got dragged into that, but it was interesting. So we played Belfast and we played the Falls Road and we played the. The. What was it called? Like, I think the Felons Club. We, you know, I turned around and Jerry Adams was behind us in the parade when we were playing. And so, you know, the rest of Us were kind of chuckling to themselves because. Because the three of us who were English, we'd only been in Dublin in Ireland, like, two months, and there we were thrown deep into, you know, and we were in the bar afterwards and they're all. And we were given a flat to stay in by somebody that had done time in long cash or somewhere. And all the books were quite interesting. They were like Alice Walker and black women's writing and stuff. So he. The person who had been a prisoner had clearly, you know, done English and stuff in there. But we were just like. We were so kind of almost nervous that we just slept on the floor rather than sleep in the bed because we were just like, you know, we're English and, you know, like, I just didn't feel qualified to get. And then, you know, in the bar going, oh, great gig. And you were like. You just didn't even want to speak because you didn't want to sound English because you were on the Fools Road and you were in a deeply Catholic area. But the band were. The rest of the band were just laughing because, you know, they often. The next day we were playing on the other side of the wall. So therefore, we had this kind of funny invisibility past that. Because we were a band playing music that wasn't on one side or the other, we were able to be there. So therefore we learned a lot. I learned a lot from that. At the same time, therefore, creativity, the music provided entertainment to both sides. And therefore, it's a bit like Belfast. Now, in downtown, they're aiming to have areas that are not, you know, religiously sectarian. They're just for people that have a certain interest. And I think that's the way forward. So that, yes, creativity, you know, it provides a way that you do things and you're not defined by your religion. Now, we did do some EU interreg projects a few years later with Belfast, Liverpool, Dublin and Brussels and the trip to Belfast, you could see that people were very defined by who they were. And there were certain signaling, signal signaling questions that they would ask each other that would establish, were you a Catholic? Where did you go to school? Were you a Protestant? And you can see it was still a massive challenge that people still needed to contextualize where these other people were from and who they were before they decided what they were going to say. So it's very difficult and complex. But then again, the titanic sector of Belfast and we were up there in a different life. For tech, events showed that there's still a lot of Great things going on up there. And if you can find ways to bring people together for their shared interests and passions, hopefully you can dial down the religious side of it. [00:46:09] Speaker B: Definitely, definitely. So going to where you live, Simon, these days you're in Cape Clear, which is Cork, which absolutely stunning environment. How does this affect you and your work outfit output and your creativity? [00:46:25] Speaker A: Yeah. So for the first. Well, for one thing, when we first moved here, I started getting invites, really interesting invites to go all over the world that when I was in Dublin I wasn't getting. And I was like, why are you only inviting me now? Like you weren't interested in me when I lived in Dublin and now it's a lot more complicated for me to get there. So one, somehow the relationship to your remoteness sometimes, you know, it's like the movie where the cowboy leaves town and says, I'm done with the gunfighting. And then they all want them to come back. So somehow by being more remote. Yeah, it's funny, but it happened. But then also then your filter goes up because in Dublin I've said this, but people would often want to have a coffee with you first and then assess if they want to work with you. Whereas if it's not trivial to get there, then you're like, let's work together and then let's have coffee. And just to try to flip that paradigm and obviously lockdown has now made many people realize that you can work with people remotely first and you don't need to have this coffee that often isn't productive. And so therefore it hasn't affected the creativity. Well, actually I'd say it's affected the creativity in a positive way that your filter goes up in terms of does this merit a face to face meeting or can we do what you want us to do to help you first and then if we're in the same place later, then we'll meet up and people. I guess so we've been advocating that for five years or more, whereas now people understand that and therefore I think it's fueled a lot of people's creativity as they've had to work with the constants. So I almost feel like the rest of the like, and I spoke about a little bit that we now have remote internships with several Irish universities, which we've always offered, but before they always were very fixated on the idea that we had to give the intern a desk and a physical building. But. But all of us don't live in the same place anyway. So therefore they now realize that, you know, if, if the quality of the work is high and the timing of the work is high, then it doesn't matter that they're not physically in the building with us, because we don't work with each other like that. [00:48:33] Speaker B: Okay. Would you say then, do you feel that cape clearance is a very positive environment for you? I mean, taken out the last year. Because it doesn't matter where we are. We have to deal with. Deal with our direct environment. But you feel it's a more positive environment, the previous ones. [00:48:53] Speaker A: Look, my. My wife went back to see the grandparents in Dublin, and after a year of the car being sat in the car park in Baltimore, on the first night back in Dublin, the car was stolen and burnt out. So, you know, like, in some ways, that's. That's. That's your metaphorical illustration of. And also, like, I've lived in many cities, but it's quite funny when you drive back from West Cork and you approach Dublin and you approach the M50, from the moment you get on the M50, you can feel the aggression, frustration and annoyance with everyone, even in their cars, around you and at each other. So, you know, the. It's dark, it's dialed up a lot higher. So do I prefer it? Yeah, look, I do. I see. But even. Even remote working isn't for everybody. Like, some people feel that they miss the water cooler and, you know, they miss that aspect. But see, I guess I had the opposite. Where before I did this, I was spending four hours each day commuting to Ericsson and Athlone. So. So therefore, you know, I'd leave before the kids were awake, I'd get back after the kids were asleep. And those four hours were even before you did the eight to nine hours of the working day there. So I've done the hardcore commute the other way. And you might get to read a bit, but only on the days you weren't driving. And overall, you strip out that commute time and therefore, hopefully, you're then focusing on the things that are practical and relevant and less time is lost to things that you didn't really need to do. [00:50:27] Speaker B: Definitely. Definitely. I think probably a lot of people are experiencing that, Simon. But also on the other side, there's those people who just. It doesn't suit them to work remotely, and they suffer from the lack of social interaction that they were used to in an office scenario, you know? [00:50:41] Speaker A: Yes. So this is true. But I guess because there are people like me, people doing things like this, I've been invited to join quite a few, like, Twitter groups like they're kind of, you know, like private influencer groups where you get invited in. And so these are people who are all over the world, but living in a similar way. So there's a lot of kind of conversation and interplay. And I think maybe the clubhouse is that perhaps like this, too, that as we see less of each other physically, we are creating and looking for ways. So, on one hand, while I might not have seen someone who's rel. I may not have seen someone who's not related to me for 24 hours sometimes, I. E. The wife or the kids. It's never 24 hours where I'm either not interviewing someone or I'm not chatting in these groups in things that are related. So, you know, I'm not going up the walls and I'm not talking to myself yet. [00:51:40] Speaker B: Okay. They say that's a side of intelligence, by the way. Just throwing it out there, apparently. Anyway, you've. You've also received arts grant, Simon, to explore mosaics and other cities, including the likes of Lisbon, Ravenna, and Mexico City. Do you want to talk a little bit about that, Simon, and those environments? [00:52:01] Speaker A: Yeah, look, so the fun. The fun and cool thing about the Mexico City ones, right? It's. UNAM is one of the cool ones. It's the library. University National. Ah, Mexico or something. They were done by Juano Gorman, so therefore, you can guess the prominence of that one. So. So I love. I love that. And. And there's a few Irish people that have popped up in different revolutions in South America, gone native and been part of that. And so Mexico City, his mosaics are on the library, and they're huge. They're like maybe 30 meters high by 100 meters wide, and they're on four sides, and they're. They're cool. The metro has a lot of mosaics in it, too. And then with. With Lisbon, it's the pavements and then Ravenna. So. But with the. With the Ravenna and the Lisbon ones, there were also Frisbee tournaments on at the same time. So I timed it that I'd spend two or three days looking at mosaics and then go and play Frisbee. So I guess with all these things, it was kind of good to both do art and work and tie it all together. And then one of my pals came with me to Italy, and he said, I don't care what we look at as long as we go to restaurants twice a day and eat Italian food. So, you know, sometimes it can be good to find traveling partners who don't necessarily love or a mad on what you do, but, but if an element of what you do works for them, then that's kind of quite surreal. It's a bit, you know, like travels with my aunt. You have a traveling companion who has a completely different take on things. But we were still there standing, looking at 7th century church mosaics for different reasons. So I kind of like the absurdity of that as well a little bit. [00:53:39] Speaker B: Okay, so Simon, currently, and you've mentioned it earlier on when speaking about, you know, being sought after more now that you're in Cape Clare, you are very much sought after in various capacities, including being an ICO advisor and a global keynote speaker. What is currently most important in your life? [00:54:00] Speaker A: Yeah, yeah, look. So I mean, I think, you know, we had a baby 15 months ago. So whether I like it or not, you know, that's, that's, that that's a factor that has to be factored in. You know, the, the kids are in school, but for the best part of the last year they've mostly been off school. So, you know, there's a debate about whether the pram in the hallway affects the creativity or not. But you see, from the very beginning, the first kids we had were twins. So we went from, we went from zero to for two weeks being told that they could tell us there was more than one, but they didn't know how many. So initially I was horrified that we might have three. And I was like, how on earth would you feed three at the same time? So therefore. But I guess what I'm saying is kids aren't necessarily a constraint or if they are, they're one. That means that when you have time, you don't faff about. So for example, now between half nine and three o'clock, that's your five hours to be creative. And then you try to then engage and be there for them when they're around. So I've got friends who have kids and therefore have 24 hours a day and they talk about how they're just too busy to get anything done. So I think sometimes there's a trade off where if you have less time, it means that you just get on with it and you're less perfectionist about things. And that's, I think attitudes can enable you to get more done sometimes. So then you're asking me, well, what's most important? I guess, and I'm not even saying that's most important, but I'm almost like that's your reality check that while we talk about big things and Big goals. It's also, you have to manage more mundane things like that. [00:55:36] Speaker B: Sure. [00:55:36] Speaker A: We spoke a bit about renovating old stone houses. Well, you can only do. It's been interesting, like if you talk to builders, builders hang up the phone the moment they learn the location of where you are. So therefore a wider trend over the last year or two, the last year has been about resilience, self resilience and the ability to do more. And so my wife is the one that will lead the research and she said, oh, I think we're going to have to put a new roof on. And I'm just like, oh my God. But she's breaking it down into watching videos on YouTube of people doing it. So therefore what's important, I think what becomes important is how can we do the things that we want to do? And even while it seems insanely ambitious, how can we break it down into bite sized tasks? And therefore, you know, like I'm saying, the builders are hanging up anyway. It no longer becomes a luxury or a choice, it just becomes the only way to do it is perhaps to do it yourself. And I think that's actually not a bad thing because you know that where you're not at the end of a long supply chain of gas, coming from Russia, you're looking at ways how can we be more self resilient, self reliant. And that might also mean that we tread more lightly on the earth. So it's kind of important in a way that that gives you a rationale for why you're doing things and how to do them. So I've half answered your question, but maybe not completely. [00:56:56] Speaker B: That's okay. No, it's an interesting answer and I think it probably will resonate with a lot of people regardless of their situation, situations. It's like that whole thing of being resilient and embracing your direct environment and at the same time trying to continue on with whatever your life work is. I think, you know. [00:57:13] Speaker A: Yeah. And I think what we've seen, and this is the lovely thing is people have still done stuff and then you'll have these crazy speeded up videos of people digging out a swimming pool from rock and they've time lapsed it and sped it up and it is one person doing it. But even you can get amazing things done. And I saw Kevin with Kevin McLeod. There's a guy who, who built a house out the side of old caves, you know, and you know, on one hand it's insane, but we can actually do a lot. And I think people have forgotten or have outsourced the ability to do things to other people without realizing that we can actually achieve quite a lot. [00:57:49] Speaker B: Is that the guy? The guy who was. Did he have some sort of a health issue? The guy who built the house out of the cave? Yeah, yeah, yeah, I saw that as well. Okay. Very, very, very fascinating. So, going back to your own life, Simon, I can't help but think, would you ever compare your own life to that of the art of mosaic? [00:58:10] Speaker A: Yeah. So I thought about this one again. You know, my wife. My wife would say you just get bored easily. [00:58:21] Speaker B: And yourself. Would you agree or disagree? [00:58:25] Speaker A: No. Like, yeah, I feel she's being a bit insulting. So I wouldn't completely agree. But I think the thing is that the great thing is that you contextualize, you cross reference, and it gives you a wider memory bank, and it also dials down the imposter syndrome and the fear of, who am I to do this? How could I possibly do that? When you get where you have a context of going, well, look, I mean, we had that goal, and even though it's hard or it was difficult, and it didn't quite turn out how we wanted, we did get that goal done and, you know, had the year in Central America, survived it, maybe didn't quite do it perfectly, but you just have to accept that and learn from it. So therefore, in some ways, I think we should all be slightly Mosaic, because then it means that we have the confidence to take on new projects that may be outside of our comfort zone. And equally, I think that keeps us alive. It's a bit like old people doing Sudoku to keep the brain challenged. Mosaic, I think, shouldn't necessarily be a negative term, but more like a palette that you can draw from when you do your next project. You might not have done, you know, that you might not have made it home from a cave, but you may have done things that give you the ability to believe that you can do something. [00:59:38] Speaker B: Interesting answer. Very interesting. I don't see it as negative at all. I think it's beautiful and it's colorful. But I do like the fact that you brought in the imposter syndrome into that, because that, of course, is a huge challenge to pretty much all creative people. [00:59:53] Speaker A: Yeah. And some of our team will have that to some degree, I guess. I personally worry less about it. It's not that I know that what I'm doing is perfect, but, like, I was at one event in the. In the Ukraine, Kiev, and there was a guy speaking, Bobby Lee, and Bobby Lee built the first cryptocurrency exchange in China and sold it. So therefore hugely successful. And he was speaking really well. So you were up there and you were co listed with him, but you're going, this guy's seriously smart and seriously amazing. So you try not to dissolve into a parliament security, but rather go, well, what's he doing well, how is he doing it well? And what can I take away from that? And I guess it's that thing that, because you're talking at events a lot, you try to make sure that you also look at, did it go well, what bits went well and how can I improve on it? And therefore, I think you just keep moving forwards. And then with the other people we have that, just not sure if they should be where they are. Then, you know, from doing the sport, you're like, you encourage people, you still point out the bits they can do better, but you also give them positive affirmation. Because humans probably need, I don't know, 70% affirmation or 90% and then 10% of critical feedback. But you have to couch it well so they can take it on board. We're just very delicate, sensitive creatures really, aren't we? [01:01:18] Speaker B: We are, definitely. Definitely. One quick question, because I know it's a large part of what you're doing right now, Blockchain for Dummies. Would you like to try and give us an explanation and how it relates to what you're doing, Simon? [01:01:34] Speaker A: Yeah. Okay, so I guess blockchain isn't a magical pill that will fix everything, but in some ways blockchain enables us to do things better than we used to before. And then the high level metaphor would be that if I just have all of my diary written in pen on a book and I drop it in the water, it's gone. But if my stuff that's important to me is in the cloud, it doesn't matter if, like the laptop we're working on now, if that laptop dies, well, that's a pain. But nothing I have on the laptop is uniquely stored on that laptop. It's up in the cloud. So blockchain gives you a way to have things distributed, you know, across number of places and therefore in that way you can have more security. And also, so the Tapscots wrote a great book, Blockchain Revolution, Don Tapscott and his son, Alec Tapscott, and they, they have some good real world examples. So, for example, if you're in Central America, if you're in Nicaragua and you have the land deeds and the dodgy local mayor tip X is out, your name and puts his name on the deeds, well, then he stolen the land and it's gone. Whereas if the land registry is on a blockchain, you can't do that, you can't erase the details because you'd have to erase the entry on every computer that's distributed globally that stores the data. So therefore, it's like the value leveraging the value of distributed locations in the cloud to ensure that an action that has been done can't be disputed or undone. And therefore, in that context. So we haven't really been super interested in Bitcoin, it's more about how can blockchain help. So blockchain could help with medical records so that you break your leg in Spain and you can access it, whereas previously, if the records are in a dusty place in Nematta, they can't find it. Whereas if you had a black box that could only be accessed when you wanted to, then you could put up your medical records and then you can start to have personalized healthcare specifically relevant for you based upon your data. So in those ways, blockchain could be really helpful for health, for land, for ownership of musical rights and things like that. So I guess those are the ways of why there's a lot of talk about it and why it's interesting because it really could tick a lot of tech for good goals. [01:03:49] Speaker B: That's a great explanation, Simon. Going back to your own life and everything that's central to it right now. Where do you see yourself by 2030? What ideally would you like to have achieved by then? [01:04:04] Speaker A: Yeah, yeah. So, well, I'd like to be alive, really. You know, good start. As a kid, I was always conscious that you could just get hit by a bus. I cycled in London. You've got to be very careful. Within, I don't know, within five years of leaving secondary school, I think at least 30 of the people in that year were dead. So therefore, without being trivial, I think it's important to kind of appreciate the value of being alive. And so therefore health and being alive are not to be underrated. And equally, a friend of a friend of ours recently just committed suicide. So you know that not everyone sees things these ways. So it does make you value the importance of mental health and having positive mental health. And obviously the cross reference will be that some people go, oh, midlife crisis, what have I done with my life? I haven't done anything. And you have to dial that down and recognize that you have done things. So in that context, while it might seem trivial simply being around and Also, I did have like a near death experience in five days in the ICU about 12 years ago. And the kids, the only kids that were alive then were very little. So therefore, I thought, oh, look, my job is to do what I can to maintain my own health, to be around for them, because they were only about, I don't know, six then or something. And therefore, you know, when people like that, Philip Seymour Hoffman, you know, when people die and they leave young children, you're like, well, whatever you felt about yourself, I still think it's a bit tough on the kids. So therefore, you know, I think, you know, if we can stop giving ourselves a hard time about not having achieved everything that we sort of wanted to, then people underestimate the value that you may well provide to other people simply by being around. And therefore, I think you should do what you can to just stick around to help out those other people, because a lot of those are little people and they just won't understand, you know, your own inner turmoil if you decide not to continue. Now, obviously that's a bit dark and heavy. So if you talk about, well, what would be important to be done by then, you know, we'd like to get the renovation done on the house so that it's not a cold, dry pile of stone. It would be one then, you know, my wife keeps talking about, you know, she had said, oh, well, you know, what are you gonna do when you retire? But she realizes that, like, I like reading and reviewing books. So in some ways, a bit like people who continue to be barristers into their 80s, if, if penguins still send me interesting books to read, I'm not gonna stop reading the interesting books because you don't lose by doing that. So it's, it's that, it's that thing, isn't it? It's half work, but if you do what you like, then it doesn't feel like work and you want. Yeah, yeah, yeah. [01:06:55] Speaker B: So I think it's a great answer in terms of, you know, even as you said at one stage, a little bit of a dark answer. I don't think so. I think that the reality of the experience that you've been through of losing somebody to suicide the last year that we've all been through, that, of course, has accentuated people who are more delicate, which we're all delicate, but, you know, people who are extra delicate. So I think it's a great answer. Simon's like, be yourself. Be the, hopefully a healthy, you know, good version of yourself and how that affects the people around you. Is potentially amazing anyhow, you know. [01:07:33] Speaker A: Yeah. And I think, actually. And also, I guess a nice thing is I've interviewed some people, like, Wade Davis was cool, and he's like late 60s, was an anthropologist at Harvard. And you can see that he's very much trying to pay it forwards, because when he was 20, the Richard Shorties believed in him and sent him to the Amazon, you know, to go and investigate. And therefore he knew that other people were supportive and believed in him. So he's. He's explicitly trying to pay it back or pay it forwards to other people. And I think that's almost recognizing, you know, like, you're no longer the best Frisbee player, but you can still be supportive and helpful to other people. And that's actually a very positive role to fulfill as well, you know. So I guess it's working out as you age how you can still be of help to other people. [01:08:20] Speaker B: Definitely. I'm 300% in agreement with that. Now, let's think about the light at the end of the tunnel, whether we believe in vaccines or not. But anyway, the light at the end of the tunnel, when we can all travel fairly freely. Again, not being worried about COVID in the way that we are currently, as a lot of people are. If I was to go and visit Cape Clear, where would you suggest for me to stay there? Simon? [01:08:49] Speaker A: Yeah, this is going to be a funny conversation, but, yeah, there's damp. You can stay. There are yurts, which are pretty lovely and they're warm. They have a fire in them. So, you know. And I've been to visit friends that have stayed in them, and they're pretty cool. Then there's the bb. My friend camped here years ago and he said the wind blew his tent away, so I would go for a yurt rather than the tent. And there are double beds in it, so you're not sleeping on the floor. [01:09:16] Speaker B: Okay. Okay. And what about. What sites would you say I should see? [01:09:24] Speaker A: Yeah, see, there are some people that ping in and ping out in the day, and therefore they take a taxi and just drive around the island. I tried to go somewhere new every day for the first year or two, and then we just got busier, so I haven't done that. But I haven't seen everywhere. And that's kind of crazy in one way because it's only three miles by one mile. So it's that whole thing a bit like. Is it Tim Robbins, Tim Robinson and the Aran Islands, where, you know, he mined the concept of the islands and he wrote at Least two sets of trilogies about the islands and understanding it. So it's. And the same with fractals. The closer you look at the coastline, the more you see the indentations. There are a lot of interesting things that I find of interest. There are beaches. So therefore, you know, the helipad is pretty cool. And so I was laughing at ourselves that in lockdown, we would drive to the helipad and then we'd go and run. Run laps around the helipad, you know, so, you know, because there is a gym here, but the gym's closed. The gym has been closed for the year. So therefore you become creative. And so me and the younger two just went and ran laughs around the helipad. And then when we got bored, we drove, chasing the youngest one, you know, So I think it's. [01:10:39] Speaker B: Well, I was gonna. I'm in my next question. My next question, Simon, was going to be any slightly unusual or eccentric experiences, but unless you have another one that I think that, that, that. That last answer is actually quite cool. [01:10:52] Speaker A: Yeah, look, the great thing is there are kayaks, and it's a lovely place for kayaking. And you can kayak either the west side or the east side. And I was kayaking the west side, but sometimes it can be flat here. And you don't realize that it's rough on the west side because you still have the residue of 3,000 miles of water. So I was going around and I was trying to get past the Duna Nord, which is like the golden castle. It's a ruin. And it was getting really rough. And then I realized there was an otter next to me enjoying the waves and surfing while I was just trying not to capsize. So on one hand I was just freaking out. On the other hand I was like, oh, that's pretty cool. There's not a here. [01:11:28] Speaker B: Oh, one of my favorite creatures. I'm a little bit envious, I have to say. So what about restaurants, Simon? What kind of restaurants would you be recommending there in Cape Clear? [01:11:41] Speaker A: Well, okay, there aren't really any at the moment. The shop. The shop does stuff. And so therefore, that I don't want to forget, like the pub and the shop both did food. So, yes, I guess it will come back. But to flip from so, so very little. In Baltimore, there was this great place that won a Michelin star, and we went to it before it shut for the winter. And therefore from on Cape, you just take what you can get. Just across the water there was a Michelin star restaurant. And I just thought that was fantastic. And it was a tasting menu and it was on slate and it was a bit like a Heston Blumenthal kind of thing. So you can kind of go. I mean, West Cork is great because it's all about taste of West Cork. So you can go from generic and functional to super high end as well, which was just fun. [01:12:32] Speaker B: Okay. Okay. And when things do open up again, the local bar is a nice bar. [01:12:40] Speaker A: Yeah, you see, back in the winter, it wouldn't necessarily open, but. But if we wanted the Six nations to open, they would open. So I think, I think any pub where you have a relationship with them that you know when and when the Lions are playing in Australia, then They opened at 9 in the morning and you could have alcohol or tea. So, you know, so you have, you have, you have, you have two pubs. But it was more, you know, that they are in the community and they integrate with the community and that therefore, you know, they will open for us to watch the Six nations and things like that. I think is what I like about it. You know, it's not that the Guinness tastes better in by St. James's Gate or anything. It's not necessarily the alcohol. It's more the whole, you know, I guess the community aspect of it, which I like. [01:13:30] Speaker B: Okay, so what size is the community there? [01:13:37] Speaker A: Yeah, it's a good question. So the island is known for bird watching and for rare and interesting species that migrate over there. And I think you can kind of carry that metaphor over to the population as well. So you have people that are all year and over winter here, and then you have the people that come back as the weather gets better, Easter, spring, summer. And so you have people that live here, people that come back temporarily. And then you have tourists as well. So I'd say that hardcore that live here is probably 80 to 100. Wikipedia says 140, but. And on the electrical on the electoral roll, it lists people that we had to ask the librarian who were these people, because we'd never heard of them or met them. So a bit like, you know, Jesus and Mary getting to Bethlehem to be registered. There are clearly people that came back for the census to be on the census. So I think living here is a slightly philosophical concept and different people have different interpretations of that. [01:14:38] Speaker B: Interesting. Okay, so lastly, Simon, what are you currently working on? [01:14:45] Speaker A: Yeah, good question. And we rebooted the podcast in January. We moved platform. We've got. We've grown the team to seven. And that's been really fun, really interesting. We just got a sponsor for March. So the first two months were about growing traffic. The next month was about boosting it to make the sponsor happy. So hopefully that progresses. And in some ways it's quite a fresh new project. Yes, I've been interviewing people for a long time. Yes, we've done podcasts, but this was looking at how we do it and how we do it well. And we've had some heads of United nations environmental program, we've had cool, interesting people. So I quite enjoy that. And it just, you still learned and it still refreshed what you did and it still challenged how you did things. So therefore there are elements of it that are definitely new. And I think by it being new, it keeps you engaged. And I think that's the thing. And in three to six months time, I mean, maybe we'll move into video. But for now, this is new and this is interesting and therefore I think I'm quite enjoying that. [01:15:49] Speaker B: That's interesting. Do you feel the need for video? I'm just throwing it out there. [01:15:55] Speaker A: Yeah. So some people do. Some people feel that it's better for reading the facial nuances of people. But in 2020 in the US there was a massive rise in podcast consumption. And what's happening? What is happening is that people, previously you'd have like a playlist and you'd have an upbeat playlist when you were jogging or walking the dog. Whereas now people have kind of going, well, I want to listen to something while I walk the dog and when I do the commute, if I still do a commute. So the use cases for people using podcast has grown. So therefore, I guess what we try to do is we try to make whatever we do consumable in the way that you want to consume it. So at the moment our text articles can be listened to, you can read a summary of our podcast. So we try to make it that you, the listener or the reader can consume in the way you want to. Therefore, video. Video works sometimes, but it would depend, like, you're not going to do it while driving, you're not really going to do it while walking the dog, and you're probably not going to do it while you're at the gym. So I think there's still a place for podcasts in some situations where video doesn't work. [01:17:06] Speaker B: Okay. Yeah. I personally find for myself personally interviewing people, it's a new territory for me and I actually find it really lovely to listen to people's voices without getting distracted about, like what they're wearing or what their environment is like. [01:17:21] Speaker A: Yeah. So I agree with you and that's that thing. And also I kind of love the curation and manipulation of the intellectual bookcases behind people, you know. So yeah, like I'm the sport that will pause the video so I can have a look at the books. And equally I feel, I feel that there's a little bit of gaming going on it too. And so, I mean, so I have a bookcase but I almost slightly, for the laugh, I include some of the boys books, you know, so that it's not, I don't need it to be intellectual too hard. But like you say, take away that and with the voice. And I think podcasts can be good and works because you get a sense of people in a deeper way. And before I've interviewed some people, when possible, I've listened to them do other interviews because then by the time you interview them, you're a bit less nervous maybe. But you also have a kind of a sense of who they are and how they roll. So yeah, look, I think there's, I think there's value in voice. It's the same way that for a while in Dublin we'd often listen to books in the car. You know, it's not a terrible way to engage with things. I think it can be good. [01:18:35] Speaker B: Okay, interesting. Yeah, a very interesting answer. Simon, I'm going to leave you with one thought about podcast. You know, podcasting as a medium, voice versus video. First of all, to say thanks very much for coming, coming. Obviously on the show you've been an amazing guest and one of the guests from season one. This is the thought I'm going to leave you with one of the guests from seasons one. She listened to one of the previous guests, who's a very well known journalist and author, listening to it in the bath. So as I say, yeah, you can, you can reply to that. [01:19:12] Speaker A: Of course we haven't got a bath, so it's not going to happen for a long time. Yeah, look, where do we listen to them sometimes? Like if we think the kids will enjoy it, we do listen to it in the living room. Otherwise, basically I try to listen to it in areas where I'm not going to kill myself by not being distracted. Driving is good. Yeah, look, see, my wife assesses who she's going to listen to on whether she likes their voice. So therefore, for meditation and stuff, I could imagine listening in the bath would be really good. I think, you know, horses for courses, really on that one. [01:19:53] Speaker B: Definitely, definitely. Well, as I say, thanks so much, Simon, for coming on today. It was really a pleasure and very, very interesting look. [01:20:01] Speaker A: Thanks. It's good to chat and I like the series that you're doing. You have a nice range of people and it's very positive. So thank you. [01:20:09] Speaker B: Thank you. Thank you, Simon. [01:20:11] Speaker A: We hope you've enjoyed today's episode of Creative Places and Faces. We look forward to bringing you more creative insights into places around the world very soon.