Award Winning Creator & Title Designer, Erin Sarofsky, From Long Island To Chicago

[00:00:03] Speaker A: Welcome to Creative Places and Faces, the podcast that explores how places can affect our creativity and lives. Irish author Jackie de Berker interviews artists, authors and all sorts of creatives from around the world. Travel virtually and explore the world creatively. Today's guest is Erin Zarofsky, the creator of the Zarofsky Corporation in Chicago's booming West Loop. This is a design driven production company whose artists, directors, producers and storytellers can unlock the magic of your project. Under Aaron's leadership, Zarofsky is renowned for creating gorgeous, innovative main title sequences for blockbuster movies and television series including Captain America, the Winter Soldier, Guardians of the Galaxy, Ant Man, Doctor Strange, Animal Kingdom and Shameless Community, and many, many others. Recognized internationally for brilliant design driven production that is limited only by imagination, Erin and her company have forged long standing relationships with proven leaders of the advertising and entertainment industries. Erin, I'm delighted first of all, to welcome you as the first guest from America. Thank you so much for joining us. [00:01:30] Speaker B: Thank you for having me. I look forward to that. [00:01:33] Speaker A: Yeah, yeah. So listen, just to place the timing of the recording purely, we're not going to talk about the pandemic hardly at all, but purely for historical reasons that we're recording this on the 15th of January, obviously in the midst of a third lockdown in many, many countries. So we're going to avoid talking about that because that's not the subject matter. But Erin, I can't resist hopping in with one of my own favorite quotes, which is Anita Desai, wherever you go becomes a part of you somehow. How do you feel about this concept? [00:02:05] Speaker B: I think it's true. I mean, we are in large part where we've been and the experiences we've had and the places we've grown up and been to and, you know, where we resonate in the world really matters. So I totally agree. [00:02:22] Speaker A: Okay, fantastic. Now, you are currently based in Chicago, obviously. Which places are important to you and your creativity and why? Erin? [00:02:33] Speaker B: Well, I really, I fell in love with Chicago. I'm not from Chicago and it kind of snuck up on me. I, I wound up here specifically for a job and I thought, well, while I'm here, I'll take advantage of it. But I fully expected to go back to New York or go to the west coast like San Francisco or LA or something, because that's historically where the work has been for somebody that does what I do. And you know, after I left my job and went back to New York, I really realized I missed Chicago and that I really kind of resonated There, it's still a big city. It still has all, like, the culture and the museums and the people and the places and the food scene and all the things. But the lifestyle and the tone of the people and the ability to kind of feel like you're a part of a community was just different. So, yeah. Yeah, I really resonated here, and. Yeah. [00:03:37] Speaker A: And what other places played important parts in your life up until this current day, if you like? Yeah. [00:03:44] Speaker B: Well, I grew up on Long island in a town called Levittown. If anybody's a fan of Billy Joel, that's what he sings about all the time. But, you know, it's interesting because it's so funny. I was talking to my aunt, and she. I never really felt like I fit in there. I always felt like a little bit of a fish out of water, although I couldn't articulate that until I was gone. I was obviously a kid. And she said, you know, it's like you walked across the stage to get your diploma and kept walking. And I just left. I left. I went to school in upstate New York, and that's where I really, like, blossomed into a person. I really. The style of person in Long island, it's oddly conservative. Even though it's in New York, it's a. It's a really interesting, strange place, and I just didn't work there. And so when I left, I really came out of my shell. But also, when we were. When I was a kid, my parents bought this little place in the Poconos, which is the mountains of Pennsylvania. They're very. They're unimpressive mountains, as far as mountains go. But it. It was out in the country. It was fresh air, and I just remember waking up really early and going for long walks to look for the animal tracks. And I just. It was the only time I was, like, ever alone. And I really, really loved and enjoyed that. So. [00:05:18] Speaker A: Okay. Yeah, that's interesting. Okay. Yeah. And tell me something. Let's go back to Long Island. So let's also talk about when exactly were you born, Erin? [00:05:30] Speaker B: So I was born in 1977. Just in Levy. Yeah. At Winthrop University Hospital. So, yeah, I was born in December of 77. I came out right after Star Wars. [00:05:45] Speaker A: Brilliant, considering what you do. That's quite funny, isn't it? [00:05:51] Speaker B: It's very funny. Yeah. So that's. You know, it was, I think, an interesting time in history. But, yeah, I got to grow up through the 80s and 90s and, you know, kind of enter my career at the beginning of the 2000s and considering what I chose to do, it was really like kind of the beginning of. Of the medium, so of design and production and animation, all kind of fusing together in a desktop environment and not like in an. In camera or optical sense. So the technology just became more relevant for artists. Easier entry into the field, I think, even though it was still nobody knew about it. Yeah. [00:06:41] Speaker A: Yeah, definitely. And tell me, you made it quite clear, Erin, obviously, Long island, it didn't seem to fit you. You don't feel it fitted you? Do you have any sort of interesting childhood memories about it, either negative or positive? [00:06:56] Speaker B: You know, I just. I feel more. What's interesting about it is my lack of memories, you know? [00:07:08] Speaker A: Interesting. [00:07:09] Speaker B: Yeah, of course. Remember, by and large, my childhood. But I mean, I grew up in one house on the same street, you know, my parents and my brother. And until I went away to college, like, I. Everything was very much the same. So. Yeah, I mean, I definitely have. I remember being really young, so, like first, second grade, and having a neighbor, Gregory, who we used to go play. There were these kind of giant sand piles. It's actually kind of a weird story, but, like, they would put sand on the road when it would snow, and over the summer they keep these giant piles of sand not far from my house. And we would go digging them, like, all day and. And, you know, like, it's just interesting because I remember our little adventures together very, very vividly. But when he moved away, it just kind of became very the same. And I was very attached to my parents and father and all my little adventures kind of became about them on weekends and stuff, so. And my dad was very much a doer. He was never sitting still. He always had some elaborate hobby also. So we were. Or fishing or we were shooting skeet or we were, you know, up in the country doing God knows what. It was always like this very interesting kind of contrast between just being in such an uber suburban environment. [00:08:50] Speaker A: Right. Yeah. [00:08:51] Speaker B: And. And then being out in the middle of nowhere, you know. [00:08:55] Speaker A: Okay, so for. For people like myself, Aaron, of course I know of Long Island. I have the idea. [00:09:00] Speaker B: Right. [00:09:00] Speaker A: Rightly or wrongly, is it kind of like what we would say in Dublin or Ireland? Is it a bit of a snobby place or not so Long island is. [00:09:09] Speaker B: Interesting because you have the part that's close to Manhattan, which is like Brooklyn, which is part of Long island, even though they would like to not think of that. But you have, like, Brooklyn and Queens, which I could. You know, they're also boroughs of the city, so they're really more a part of the city. Then you get into Nassau county, which is really the working class community, a very conservative working class community. So that's why I mentioned Billy Joel. It is of that ilk. And then as you go more west, it gets more hoity toity. That's when you get to, like, the Hamptons and Montauk, and it gets a little bit out of control. But when I was a kid, like, the Hamptons was a thing, but it wasn't like a thing like it is now. So. Yeah, so it. Yeah, because I remember my. One of my aunts had that same aunt, had a little house out there, and we would go, and it was so fun and amazing. But. Yeah, yeah, but the Poconos was, like, really a whole other thing because you'd have to drive through Manhattan, you'd have to drive through the chaos, and then all of a sudden you get to, like, the Delaware Water Gap, and it gets quiet, you know, this. This little kind of river, and everything becomes peaceful after that. So it's really an interesting. You kind of got to go through the lion's den to get out into the middle of nowhere. [00:10:39] Speaker A: Okay. Okay. So tell me something about your childhood, Erin. Obviously you have a huge creative talent. That. That goes without saying, but do you have memories like, that were different to other children? Meaning that of course, most children, at least of. Of our generation, let's just say it's normal to create and make, you know, before computers and tablets and all that were part of their lives. Do you remember that it was something special for you, or did you feel like you were just doing it like. Like the other kids? [00:11:12] Speaker B: Oh, no, it was definitely something special for me. I was. I was not only like a maker of things, but I was a finisher and a kid that liked to create expertise in it. So, you know, like, at summer camp, when people would do the lanyards or the friendship bracelets, like, I got so good at that, and I would create my own patterns, and it really became like art, like, regular crafts for people became art to me. And I went to summer camp. And at summer camp, of course, my favorite part was arts and crafts. And it was a little bit of a hoity toity summer camp because it was a little bit out on Long island and. And they had, you know, some photography stuff where, you know, you could go out and expose paper and then go in and develop it, and it was really such a fun experience. Sorry, I'm at the office. So the phone is going occasionally, but. So, yeah, it's Just really kind of fascinating thing. Like, I. I just would dig in super hard and go really deep on all of the things, whether it was drawing or writing or anything like that. [00:12:30] Speaker A: So, okay, so you were kind of bringing. You were bringing what was like for most, most of the other children, arts and crafts into a whole new level. Really? [00:12:40] Speaker B: Yeah, I just would get really fixated on it and really dive in. And my parents were very encouraging. My mom would take me to the art supply store on the regular and I would just walk through the aisles and be like, can I do airbrushing now? And she'd be like, okay, let's get airbrushing stuff now. And I'd sit and I'd start working with it. I just love the different materials and all the things. And then on the other side, my dad was in information technology. He was very big. He actually became pretty big on that side. He was a chief information officer of a pretty large brokerage firm. And so it was interesting. I always had a Mac. I asked for a Mac when I was a little, little girl, like a 2 GS, one of the original ones. And so I was one of the few girls that was like, incredibly computer literate, you know, I guess that makes a huge difference. [00:13:37] Speaker A: So what age. What age would you have been there? And when you got your mic? [00:13:41] Speaker B: I mean, I was very early grade school because I remember in third grade we had this tiny little computer lab and people were learning how to type. And I was like, how could you not know how to type? [00:13:54] Speaker A: Okay. [00:13:55] Speaker B: Like, I mean, computers were expensive. Nobody had computers that was like, for data entry, you know? So I. I literally don't remember ever not having a computer. And I was born in 1977, so. Yeah. And I had my own computer. My brother had his computer. He always had an IBM or a PC of sorts. And I always had a map. Yeah. [00:14:18] Speaker A: Yeah, that's. Well, that's an amazing. It's an amazing grounding, you know, because it's obviously so deep in your subconscious that you had a Mac from such a. Such a young age, you know? [00:14:29] Speaker B: Yeah. I think people really take for granted now the access to technology and the how literate they are going into school and all of that. And I also think people also don't understand how really women were not encouraged to use computers until very recently. It was very much considered like, oh, that's a guy's toy. You know, that was a guy's thing. And so it really, for me was like a. I was definitely like an anomaly in that way. I was interested in it. And I was unafraid of it. And when you kind of segregate women from it, they develop a fear around it. Like I don't even know if they realize it or if anybody would realize it. But if you, if it, if you were kind of somehow told by society or whoever, like, oh no, like the boys do that, like that's going to become part of who you are, you know. [00:15:29] Speaker A: Absolutely, I entirely agree. I mean, I think, I think, of course it's totally different days now, but yes, I remember, you know, at that on those much earlier times, Aaron, that it was almost like, yeah, it's technology, it's, it's, it is for the boys and maybe a woman, A girl or a woman, you know, as soon as she does something wrong, computer can almost explode, you know. [00:15:50] Speaker B: Yeah, it's true. I mean I often think like even with my dad, like, I don't necessarily, I, I think it's interesting. Like my brother had the PC and I had the Mac. There was, I, I don't specifically remember asking for a Mac, but I think part of him maybe gave it to me because it was the easier computer. [00:16:14] Speaker A: Yeah, it could be true. I don't know. I certainly not going to make a judgment about your dad, but. [00:16:19] Speaker B: No, no, no. But I just think it's fascinating, you know, I think. [00:16:22] Speaker A: Yeah, yeah. [00:16:23] Speaker B: In the true honesty of thinking back, it could have been, it could have been that. But if you really like look back at the difference between me and my brother, I am definitely the brighter bulb. [00:16:41] Speaker A: And your brother, your brother is younger or older than you are. [00:16:44] Speaker B: He's two years older. [00:16:47] Speaker A: Okay. [00:16:47] Speaker B: Yeah. So. [00:16:49] Speaker A: And he didn't, he didn't go down a similar route to yourself then? [00:16:53] Speaker B: No, no, no, he's, yeah, he's not like me in all the ways, but yeah, he's a non creative and yeah, in a way a lot simpler kind of life. [00:17:08] Speaker A: But yeah, yeah, but I mean that happens in so many families that, you know, there's such, such a contrast between, you know, between the siblings. Now you went, you mentioned that you went to the Parsons School of Design. What age were you at that stage? And what, and why was that important? Talk to, talk to us, Erin. Because I don't know, of course I've googled it, but I don't know how well known it is, you know, being obviously being in Europe. I'm not sure about those things. [00:17:40] Speaker B: Okay, so Parsons, it's also called the New School. They, they're in New York and they're really a very, very, very world renowned Art school, especially for fashion. And I've never really been interested in fashion, but I know they're an amazing design school. And when I was on Long Island, I applied to get into a summer program there that would have been my junior to senior year of high school. And I got in and I spent my summer taking the train into Manhattan and doing courses and, and it was awesome because, you know, not all. I would take my train, the train in with my father and he would go into work very early. Then I just kind of keep going uptown. He would get off downtown by the bull, just like the movies on Wall street. And I would go uptown and go to Parsons or Midtown really. And I just met again. It was just, I think as I reflect as we talk about all these things, like anytime I wasn't on Long island in that sameness, I was just, my eyes were opened, you know, I met all these amazing people. The professors, the other students were from all around the world and it, it just, I think at that point it kind of clicked to me. Like I didn't have to be some kind of. I could be artistic and have that be a career, you know, and have it not rely on a technology that it can be a talent that makes my way in the world, you know, and not a specific. Like I'm an accountant, I'm. I do this. I can kind of say I have this ability and I don't know where it's going to take me but I'm going to follow it because other people have done that. Like I, I definitely come from a non creative family or at least non creative in that. That's. None of them are like people that are illustrators or photographers making money on their talent. It was more technical for them. [00:19:56] Speaker A: What about your mum? You said, you said Erin, that your mum was very encouraging. Was that her just being a good mum or was there any sort of little hobbies that she might have had herself? [00:20:06] Speaker B: She was just being a good mom. I think she, I don't think she really ever found her passion. I think, you know, as many women do, like they do the things they're, they think they're supposed to do. [00:20:24] Speaker A: Sure, yeah. [00:20:25] Speaker B: You know, and you know she, she did go to college and get her degree in history and I think maybe she aspired to be a teacher, but I don't think she ever really liked children very much. So, so I, yeah, so when she finished her degree she came home and married my dad and started having kids. And once we were a little bit older she took jobs as like Teacher's assistants or things like that, where she was in, but not, like, all in, you know. [00:20:58] Speaker A: Right. [00:20:59] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:20:59] Speaker A: Yeah. [00:21:01] Speaker B: And, you know, I wonder if that. I think she would see me and think that I would say that she did not reach her potential or something like that, but I. I don't. I don't know what her potential is or was or could be. Right. Like, she. I don't really know what her true passions were. Where my father had so many passions, and he would, like me, dive in real deep on a thing and then move on to another thing like a year later. She was very, I think, content. Being content. Right. [00:21:41] Speaker A: Okay. [00:21:42] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:21:42] Speaker A: Yeah. But sometimes it's a. It's a. It's a funny concept in a way. Sometimes when I am going through, like, really that drive to create something and to do something, sometimes it can be quite extreme. And in a way, you don't. You'd almost envy people who are just content. [00:21:59] Speaker B: Yeah. Who. Who don't necessarily aspire. And I don't mean that, like, in a bad way. I think to some degree, I feel sad that maybe she didn't find her passion in life, but I also don't feel like she reflects on her life and is sad about it. You know, I think she, you know, did the best she could with all the things in the world, you know, that in the time that she was born and the place she was born, with all the circumstances, you know, so. [00:22:34] Speaker A: Yeah, I mean, for lots of. And it's not just women, you know, for lots of men, having a family is filled. It's filled so much as that glass, if you like, you know. [00:22:44] Speaker B: Exactly. Exactly. [00:22:45] Speaker A: So it just depends, I think, on the person. Also, you mentioned Poconos as a place that you went as a family on holidays. Can you describe it a bit more to me, Aaron, please? Because it looks. It looks lovely. [00:22:57] Speaker B: Okay, so Pennsylvania, it's the east coast, east side of Pennsylvania, just north of Philadelphia. And they're called the Pocono Mountains. And. But they're. They're very sad mountains. They're not like the Alps or like Colorado or Whistler or anything like that. They're more like hills in that way, but it's just rolling forests. And I. You know, being from Long island, where it's strip malls on strip malls and track housings, and I grew up in Levittown, which is the first. I don't know if it is in the world, but certainly in the U.S. that's, like, where they built houses for people coming back from the big war. So it was the first, you know, community kind of created. Yeah. And so that I lived the most suburban in air quotes, life you could possibly imagine. So the Pocono was just such a stark contrast. It was dirt roads and, you know, you'd have to drive for 20 minutes or 30 minutes just to go to the grocery store. And the grocery store. There was one. And everybody knew everybody, you know, so. [00:24:12] Speaker A: Like a whole different world, really. [00:24:13] Speaker B: No, really. It was very charming. And, you know, now I understand the people to be a little even more conservative in another kind of interesting way where. But. Because you can't ignore the fact that the world is how it is now. But the. They also were very kind of friendly towards each other. And to a minimal number of outsiders, you know, they. They really. Everybody knew everybody. Like, you'd go to the local diner, and there was one. And this one person was there every time, and she knew your order. And it just wasn't like that. It just wasn't like that. And they take time and sit with you and talk with you, and there wasn't this sense of urgency or. And there was a certain thing about Long Island. I'm gonna sound like I'm really shit talking it, but there. The type of person that thrives on Long island seems like it comes from a very selfish place. There's just a lot of people. A lot of people think a lot about themselves. And. Yeah, it's just like the point of view is just so. It's in a way, so stark and a little bit sad. There really isn't this amazing feeling of community where I was from. And so when I would go to these places, when we would go to the Poconos, and, like, the same woman knew us, and the grocery store was Bill's grocery store, and Bill also owned the True Value, and you would see Bill every once in a while. It was like a whole. A whole different thing. And it was so lovely, you know? [00:26:00] Speaker A: Yeah, it is. We. We have a lot of. Because I'm. I'm inland in the countryside in Spain, and we have. We have a lot of that sort of feeling still in many of the villages and small towns here. And it is lovely. It's completely human, you know? [00:26:12] Speaker B: Yeah, exactly. [00:26:14] Speaker A: Which is lovely. And why do you think Long island attracts or brings out that sort of selfish, streaking people? [00:26:22] Speaker B: I don't know. I think every place has their vibe and their thing. And I'm not saying that there aren't good people there and that, but I think it's just congested, and that congestion creates, like, apathy and a selfishness. You know, I think it's a pretty vain place as well. There's like a lot of nail salons and it's just the vibe is a little bit, it's just, it's just a little bit self centered. It's very, very, very hard to describe. And that's why going to Rochester to school, which is upstate New York, which is very granola, very rooted in an arts community, was so different for me too. [00:27:16] Speaker A: Okay, so you, you went to the Rochester Institute of Technology, Aaron, didn't you? [00:27:20] Speaker B: Yeah. Yep. [00:27:21] Speaker A: So. And talk about that. That must have been a big contrast. [00:27:24] Speaker B: It was giant. It was, I think, very similar to the Poconos. Let a little, A lot larger. It's still a real city. The Poconos is definitely not a real city. There's, there's Granton or something like that, but like it's, but it was in Rochester and Rochester is where Kodak was founded. And so even like industry there was rooted in arts, in science and in creativity. And that permeated the community, you know. And the school I went to was not only an art school, but a photography school. And there was this interesting balance of creativity, creativity and technology. And that was a real sweet spot for me because I wasn't afraid of the technology and I was very thoughtful about craftsmanship and doing the work. And so that's where it really all came together for me. [00:28:30] Speaker A: Okay. Okay. That sounds like a great environment obviously for you to have studied. Okay. And the place itself, I mean, did you, did you live there at that stage or you were commuting there? [00:28:44] Speaker B: Oh, no, I live there. So Rochester is up near. It's much closer to Toronto than. Yeah, it's all the way. It's like seven hour, eight hour drive from. [00:28:55] Speaker A: Wow. [00:28:55] Speaker B: No, you certainly weren't away. Yeah, no, yeah, yeah, I left. [00:29:01] Speaker A: Yeah, okay, that's fine. Why did you choose Rochester out of interest, Erin? [00:29:08] Speaker B: You know, it's interesting. I didn't, maybe, I don't remember, but I ultimately came down between there and Carnegie Mellon and I still had this thing and I was accepted at both places and Carnegie Mellon was in Pittsburgh, which is the other side of Pennsylvania. And I think I just liked Rochester better. I think that also it was. My father did really well at that point and I knew I wasn't going to get any scholarships. I probably got a couple little scholarships, but nothing substantial. And I remember tuition, like room and board. My first year of college. RIT was going to cost like $26,000 a year. And Carnegie Mellon was going to cost, like, $36,000 a year, and, like, the programs were the same. And I just was like, that's a lot of money. Now It's, I'm sure, like double. You know, I can't even imagine how much it costs now. I almost don't want to know, But I just remember thinking, like, oh, well, that's. That's a lot of money, and I should go here because it's not that big of a difference. And I really. I think I also just liked it better. [00:30:28] Speaker A: So you. You would have gone to the two places physically, or you just made a choice? [00:30:33] Speaker B: Yeah, no, I went. No, no, no. I went and visited those. The two schools and checked them out. I. I think I just didn't really resonate in. In maybe in Pittsburgh. And I wanted to have a reason other than that because it's very, you know, as a. And I was young. I was like 16, 17. I was a year ahead in school because my mom put me in school a year ahead, not because I was brilliant or anything like that. So she was just like, she's ready for school. And she's like, get her out. She's starting school. So I was always like the baby in my class. I was always the youngest being. So I don't know that I had, like, the really. The emotional intelligence to really understand why I was making the choice to go to Rochester. So I always said it's the money, but it was probably just. I liked it better. It was calmer. Yeah. [00:31:26] Speaker A: Yeah. Describe Rochester as a place for those of us who don't know it. [00:31:34] Speaker B: How would I describe it? Well, it's a very little city. It's topographically, it's right on Lake Ontario. So we would get pummeled with snow because of all the lake effect snow. The way the. The jet stream moved across the lake, it would just pile snow up. So, like, you would wake up in the morning and there'd be, like, no joke, three or four feet of snow. So snow up to your knees or your thigh. And. And nothing ever closed. Everything was open all the time. [00:32:12] Speaker A: It. [00:32:13] Speaker B: It's also, like, right near the Finger Lakes region. So you had all these very small glacier lakes that were really, really beautiful and pretty, and lilacs were really big there, and they're this very fragrant bush that have these little beautiful flowers. And my grandmother always wore lilac scented stuff, so it reminded me of her. Yeah. It's just there were a lot of old Victorian houses. It felt like history, like Long island being such a strip mall. Everything felt New but already beat up kind of thing. [00:32:50] Speaker A: Okay, yeah, yeah. [00:32:52] Speaker B: Everything in Rochester. There was also like a bit of strip malls there too, but nowhere near the amount of Long Island. Like, literally every inch of Long island is covered by just a little strip mall that has all these. A nail salon in it and a pizza place in it and a bagel shop in it and some kind of tax accountant in it. It's just like a really bizarre kind of setup. [00:33:19] Speaker A: It kind of sounds like it lacks character and culture. [00:33:22] Speaker B: No, that's the very easy, eloquent way to describe it. Thank you for articulating that for me. And Rochester really did. It had this like a really. And maybe that's also a difference between, you know, Pittsburgh and Rochester. Rochester. Pittsburgh is like a steel mining. It's a much more working, physical, working class kind of city. A beautiful city. And Carnegie Mellon, by no means. It's like a stunning campus and beautiful college to attend. But Rochester, like, just with the Victorian houses, there was a sense of, like, I don't know, to your point, history and community. [00:34:05] Speaker A: Yes. So important though, isn't it? So it seems, it seems to me because of, as you said, you know, in our chat before we started recording. Of course, my questions are very. They're very based on place. And it seems to me, Aaron, that, you know, in Long island, the sort of. The plastic approach to how it's been constructed divides people from, like, real nature, from. From feeling. From feeling that depth of humanness. [00:34:33] Speaker B: No, I. Yes, absolutely. It's interesting. Like, I don't really have many friendships or relationships that predate college that I've maintained, you know, except for. [00:34:47] Speaker A: Wasn't it Gregory? And obviously you didn't maintain. Yeah, we maintained because he left. [00:34:51] Speaker B: He left. You know, it's so interesting how parents kind of choose to handle situations. But, like, one day he was just gone. And I remember being devastated, you know, so it. It's just fascinating because. And then when I. When I got to college, literally the first person I met there is my best friend to this day. [00:35:17] Speaker A: Yeah. [00:35:17] Speaker B: And it's because you were in the. [00:35:20] Speaker A: Right place at that time. No. Yeah. [00:35:21] Speaker B: It's so cliche. But like, I just, you know, sometimes you're born into the right place and sometimes you have to find it. Yes. [00:35:31] Speaker A: Yeah, I think so. So. So we both. Where were you, both of your parents from for you to be born and brought up in Long Island? [00:35:40] Speaker B: They were both from Brooklyn, from different parts of Brooklyn, so. And their families immigrated. Some they're the generation above them and some the two generations above Them So their grandparents or parents. Most. Most of it was the grandparents. I think there was one parent that came, but from. They came from Poland, Russia. Like, okay, the border changed so much. It's kind of hard to know. But like that up there. Eastern European. So. Yeah. And they settled in Brooklyn in two different parts of Brooklyn. But yeah, they eventually met each other. They met while my mom was in high school, so my dad kind of waited for her basically after she went away from. For college, and then she came back and they got married and started a family and. Yeah. [00:36:35] Speaker A: Oh, that's very romantic, isn't it? [00:36:37] Speaker B: It is, actually. [00:36:40] Speaker A: It is. It really is. So do you feel just digressing a little bit from. From sort of talking about the places and your career? Do you feel any obvious connection with your. I would have thought we'll say Polish or Russian roots. [00:36:58] Speaker B: Yeah, you know, it's interesting. So. So if somebody were to ask me, what are you? Right. Just like, what are you? I would say I'm Jewish. I would say I'm Jewish, you know. [00:37:13] Speaker A: Yeah, yeah. [00:37:14] Speaker B: But I don't believe in God. I'm a total non believer. I. But I'm Jewish, right. I am of Jewish descent, I would say. So I relate to it more culturally than religiously. It's. And it's interesting. I wouldn't say I'm American. I wouldn't say I'm this or that, you know, I would say I'm Jewish. And that's okay. How I feel like I walk through the world. Yeah. It is an interesting thing because it's. That's. That to me, is my heritage. [00:37:48] Speaker A: Yeah, I totally. I totally get that, Aaron, because some of our good close friends here are a Dutch couple and she's a us. And you know, it's like. Yeah, very much. I very much get that. Because of our friends. I do understand. [00:38:03] Speaker B: Yeah, it's very cultural for me. The way, you know, somebody might. Would say they're Italian or the way that, you know, Portuguese or something like, I am Jewish. But I realize that doesn't pinpoint me on a map somewhere, you know? [00:38:20] Speaker A: No, but I think that's part of being Jewish also, isn't it? [00:38:22] Speaker B: Yeah, it is. Where we go, we go. When we have to go, it's time to go, we go. We get up and leave, start again and lean into education and all of that. [00:38:37] Speaker A: Yeah, I've forgotten the name. But you can probably help me with this Matilda. Who's. Who's our. Our friend that I've just mentioned. She gave me this really nice. Well, I Suppose you call it a talisman. In a sense, it's. It's a Jewish thing that you put outside the front door at a very slight angle. [00:38:55] Speaker B: Oh, yeah, yeah. Ah, it's. It's a prayer over your house. So you put it in the doorway and it'll come to me in a second. [00:39:05] Speaker A: But, yeah, I'm just curious because. Yeah, I had forgotten the name. [00:39:09] Speaker B: Yeah, Mezuzah. It's a mezuzah. [00:39:12] Speaker A: Okay. [00:39:13] Speaker B: Everything sounds like you're slurring when you speak Hebrew. Sounds like you're a little drunk, but, yes, it's a mezuzah. There we go. [00:39:21] Speaker A: Okay, thank you. Now, Now I can. Now I can. I can remember. I can write it down after, after our chat. So listen, let's go back to. We kind of digress. We went off on a bit of a wander, didn't we? [00:39:32] Speaker B: Yeah, that's okay. [00:39:34] Speaker A: Listen, your first year, Rochester obviously suited you perfectly at that time. [00:39:38] Speaker B: You. [00:39:40] Speaker A: What kind of training were you doing there? Just in terms of the course. The coursework, Erin. [00:39:45] Speaker B: Yeah, so my undergraduate was in design and graphic design, but boy, they had photography school and a school for American crafts. So in addition to my design classes, I was taking photography classes and I mean, I took weaving classes and pottery classes. I, I just, I was one of those kids. I didn't just take, you know, the number of credits I needed to graduate. I, you know, I. I took courses every day, every minute of every day. And I loved it. I love doing design, but I love working with my hands. And I think that shows in my work today. It's very tactical, definitely. And that's why, like, it goes from live action to in the computer to, oh, I'll make a book for that. And I'll make the book and then we'll film the book and then we'll add CG to the book. Yeah, so. So I think that, you know, that kind of mixed media aspect to my education definitely plays a big role in the kind of things I really gravitate. [00:40:52] Speaker A: To because you don't limit your approach at all. Yeah, you started that in Rochester. You obviously took advantage on every single thing you possibly could, you know. [00:41:03] Speaker B: Right. And then I was really young because I took those classes at Parsons. I also took some other classes at another university on weekends when I was on Long island. And I got to school and I had a lot of classes, I had a lot of credits. And because I took so many extra classes all the time, I wound up graduating a year early. So not only did I start school early I then graduated early. So when I graduated, I was 19 and I was not ready for the world. [00:41:38] Speaker A: That's topa. [00:41:39] Speaker B: Yeah. So I stayed to get my master's degree in computer graphics. And that's when I really kind of focused on the computer compute. Computer aspect of it. Really kind of doing 3D and programming and getting. Getting in really deep on that side of it. And that's when I fell in love with bringing my design to life in the computer, in animation. And that's where I focused my career right after. [00:42:06] Speaker A: Sure. Okay, so now your first significant job, Erin, was in Digital Kitchen. Let's talk a little bit about that. [00:42:13] Speaker B: Yeah. Again, I can't imagine being a parent to me because I remember coming home and I had like a communication arts magazine and I showed it to my parents and I was like, it must have featured some motion design companies. And really, as far as I can remember, there were only three. Digital Kitchen Imaginary Forces and you and company. These three amazing. Also Tomato Tomahto in the UK was amazing as well. And I said to them, I'm going to work at one of these three places. And they probably looked at me like I was crazy. I just come home so entitled and confident and say, I'm going to work at one of these three places, of course. And I sent my portfolio. I work on my reel. I sent it to them all three places, and within days I heard back from Digital Kitchen, and they were like, would you be open to Chicago? Because we're opening an office there and we're staffing it. And I'm like, yeah, I'll go anywhere. I don't care. So I went out and we interviewed and I just accepted the job. And I just can't imagine my parents were so like, okay, that's great, hon. Go get them. They didn't say to me, like, are you crazy? You can't just think you're going to get a job at one of these three places. That, you know, they just supported me and said, go get them, tiger. You know, and it's really unbelievable that any of them reached back out to me or that the kismet of it not to be continuing to show my Jewishness, but, like, the timing of it was amazing. Like, I just so happened to be ready and they just so happened to be opening an office. And that's what I really talk to people about, you know, especially students. Like, the timing has to be right. Like, you might think you're perfect for this place, but maybe they're going through a dry spell. They're not going to be hiring at that time, you know, so you have to like, diversify and get your stuff out there. But for me, it was like one of these three places and, and it happened. Yeah, it's crazy. [00:44:23] Speaker A: It's, it's fascinating when you think about. Imagine if some. One of the other, the other two remaining, particularly the UK based one. Imagine if they had got to you first, you know, what would have happened? You know, you're still going to have arrived into the high level of success that you, you know, that you've obviously arrived at, but by a different route, I suppose. [00:44:47] Speaker B: No, I often wonder that I certainly probably wouldn't have landed in Chicago because how else would I have learned about it and fallen in love with it? So. Yeah. [00:45:00] Speaker A: So how, how did you feel about Chicago? I mean, I know you're back there now and obviously, you know, we know that that's where you're based and where you love, but in those early days, you know, you're working in digital kitchen as your first important job and you're in this brand new place, you know, how was the environment for you in those days? [00:45:19] Speaker B: Yeah, you know, for me, I just didn't care about where I was. It was all about work. It was. That was it. Like I just lived to wake up and go to work, and I'd go home and sleep and go back to work. It was really like my apartment was very unimpressive. The neighborhood didn't really suit me, but, you know, you know, I was very, very singularly focused. And over time, while here, I just, all of a sudden I was just looking for a better neighborhood or a different neighborhood to kind of go to, or I was, you know, I, I just kind of started to make it mine. You know, it's like, oh, I can live in this neighborhood. It's a lot cuter. Oh, I can have a car if I live here, or I can, you know. Yeah, it just started to become more mine, you know, Eventually I bought a little condo here and yeah, it just started to become a home. And I would say until I left, I did not realize that that happened, you know. [00:46:28] Speaker A: So describe that neighborhood, Erin. [00:46:31] Speaker B: Yeah, so I, when I started out, I started, I think, as everybody does, right by the lake, next to Lake Michigan on Lincoln, Lincoln Park. And it's a charming neighborhood, but it's, it's a little bit crowded. I mean, there's really no street parking and it's a little bit harder to navigate if you, if you like having a car and you want to have a little bit More independence besides public transportation. And so I eventually made my way west to a neighborhood called Logan Square. And this was like, before Logan. If you are familiar at all with everything that's going on in Chicago, Logan Square was, like, not a thing. The very Latino community. A very, like, rooted in, like, the arts. There was, like, cool graffiti and, you know, just dive restaurants and all that stuff. And I loved it. There was this new. It wasn't a new. It was in a refab building, but it was a. A great complex. And me and one of my friends, Kelly, moved in, and we just had the, like, the most charming, cute little apartment, and it was very sensible, and we had a good time there. And ironically, it's like, literally a block away from my big, beautiful house that I have now. So. Okay, so I found my spot. You know, I found, literally, I must gravitate, like, into a very specific longitude and latitude on the planet. [00:48:06] Speaker A: Okay, so talk a bit about your work in Digital Kitchen. You were there for a few years, Erin, weren't you? [00:48:13] Speaker B: I was there for six years, which in dog years is quite a long time. [00:48:19] Speaker A: Yeah, you've got 42 dog years there. [00:48:21] Speaker B: 42 dog years. And that's kind of what it was like, though, because I worked all the time. And what I would say is that I've heard the quote, it's mileage, not age. Like, I put on the mileage there. I really learned the craft. They really focused. I really arrived in myself as an artist, as a person. And when I was ready to take on more leadership of not just being an artist, but taking on more client facing. And I was. I just wasn't being acknowledged for it. It was time for me to go because I realized, like, if you start somewhere really young, it's going to be very hard for them to see you in a new light. You know, at some point, you have to. You gotta go. You know, you gotta move on and go, and change is good. And I thought, as most people do, like, especially if you're from New York, like, I'm going back to New York. I'm gonna do it. You know, I'm gonna reconnect with my family and. And. And take on the Big Apple. [00:49:31] Speaker A: And of course, of course, I mean, not only, you know, are you from New York, but of course, lots of creatives around the world will be like, yay, New York, the Big Apple. Yeah. You went back there around the age of 30. Erin, how was it for you? [00:49:44] Speaker B: It was terrible. [00:49:46] Speaker A: Okay. [00:49:47] Speaker B: It was terrible. I mean, there's. I like, my job for the most part, it was a company called Superfad. I had access to great work and a lot of talented artists in addition to myself. And it was a petri dish. But I gave up this like amazing independent life and all of a sudden I'm making like this amazing six figure salary and I'm living like a college student again. In order to live where I want to live, you know, I have to take on a roommate. I have to like, I went from having my own place, a nice car, like, ability to save all of that stuff, making like half as much money, and now I'm in Manhattan and it's just like, you couldn't keep up with it, you know, it was really frustrating. It was really frustrating. And the thing I was frustrated, I think most with, it's like the relationships I was making, I could tell weren't lifelong relationships, right? Like they. Everybody. So the way it would go was be like, what are you doing tonight? And I'd be like, I don't know, you want to hang out? And they're like, okay, well I'll text you later. And I'm like, no, no, no, do you want to hang out? And they're like, well, we'll see where I wind up. And it's like, what does that mean? Like, somebody would go somewhere and they'd follow the night, you know, like whatever coolest was happening, whoever coolest happened to be there, they followed the night. And I would start finding myself doing the same thing. Like, so instead of making plans with people, I would just like, see where things would go. And that's not how I want to live my life. I want to live my life with intention. I want to make plans with people. I want to hang out with somebody. I want to go to dinner with somebody because I want to go to dinner with somebody, not because I wound up going to dinner with somebody. And it was always like with your friends, it was always like, okay, well whoever's doing the coolest thing, that's what I'm going to jump on board with. And it was just like, now it's just not me. Like, like I might be doing the coolest thing, but it's because I thought about it and figured it out and planned for it. And now I'm going to the opera, or now I'm going to a Mets game, or now I'm doing whatever. But like there, it's just a. It was a very different kind of life and attitude. And I missed. Even with my clients, I felt like I wasn't necessarily making lifelong Friendships, like in Chicago, I felt like I really. I made. In Rochester, I felt like I was able to make relationships and develop friendships really easy in Chicago to a certain degree as well. And in New York, yeah, it was. It was a different feeling for sure. [00:52:37] Speaker A: So what about the concept then, Erin, because of what you said, and I'm thinking also, you know, about my own life in a similar way. So what about the concept that, you know, the places that you make friends really easily are probably a good places to consider living. [00:52:53] Speaker B: Oh, totally. [00:52:54] Speaker A: Of course, the same kind of people are gravitating towards. Towards those places. [00:52:59] Speaker B: No, I would agree. And what's so interesting is, like, now we have our, you know, diversity issues in our industry, and I think people have to be more comfortable hiring people that don't reflect them back to them. And so I think we're going through that as a society now because we have to be open to differences and all of that stuff. But I do think, like, when choosing a place to live, the people around you are that what you say is exactly right. The people around you have to welcome you, you know, you for you, you know, not you for, you know, the fact that you have us open tickets. So. [00:53:45] Speaker A: Yeah, so. So with your time, how long did you spend back in New York at that stage? And what kind of conclusions did you come to? [00:53:52] Speaker B: Yeah, I mean, I was there for almost two years, maybe a little more, maybe a little less. And I just concluded I had to leave by any means. I just decided, like, I cannot live here and I don't want to live here. And I started kind of trying to figure out my options. Now, Chicago still, at that time, even though Digital Kitchen was here, I knew I wasn't going back there. That for me to go back to Chicago was tricky because it was still rooted in a very. This is their 2006. No, in 2007, 8, 9. And it was still very strong post house community, not a design company community. So you had post houses that were developing little design companies. And I felt very strongly that I wanted to work at a place that was design led, that people went there not just because they had design where somebody could lay out some type and throw it on a commercial, but that they came to you because you had a point of view that was from a design perspective. And there really wasn't a place here that I would feel, even though people said, yeah, yeah, yeah, we do that, we'll do that, we'll build that for you. We'll. We'll make that. I just didn't believe it, you know, because that's not what they were as a company. That's not what they were known for, and that's not the relationships that they had spent literally dozens of years cultivating was all about. And so actually, the rep from Digital Kitchen had dropped Digital Kitchen or whatever, they parted ways. And I was talking to her again, a friendship that I'd made. And I was like, yeah, I kind of want to come back. And she's like, well, I can get you some work. And I was like, really? She's like, yeah, you could start a little thing. People remember you, you know, like. And, you know, at dk, I was doing super bowl commercials and, you know, Emmy nominated main title sequences. She's like, you're not gonna be doing that right away, but I'll get you work. And so she did. She got me, like, an Easy Mac commercial from Kraft and introduced me to some people out of Detroit that do a lot of car stuff. And I was able to pick up a couple of gigs, but I started my own company. But really, I just called it my last name because I was like, it just needed to be paperwork so that I could. [00:56:25] Speaker A: I'm laughing, Aaron, because I was. I was listening and watching, obviously. Also, a drink with the guys. Yeah, yeah, of course. In my research up to our chat today, and yes, of course, one of the questions was, yes, if you hadn't gone for that name out of pure convenience, what. What would you have gone for? [00:56:45] Speaker B: I don't know. And I still don't know. Like, I've given it no thought because it. It. I was. I was joking with my lawyer. It was like, Swarovski Corp. I'm like, oh, I could always call it an S Corp, because that's what it is. And they were like, that's the dumbest thing I've ever heard. And it's just, like. It's just really funny because choosing a name, like most artists and designers, they would, like, labor over that for years and years and years. And for me, I was just. It was just some paperwork that I had to file. And then I had my friend Magnus design a logo out of my name so I could put it on letterhead so I could have some, like, official documentation, and I could put together a website and. And then it just, like, became the name because. Because the studio became something. It, like, grew into something. And now what I'm focused on doing is growing it from my name into a global brand, which is not as easy as it sounds. But I think time, really. Time and consistency is what will ultimately make that happen? [00:57:51] Speaker A: So, yeah, I think so. Listen, you know, with it, as a. As a person who has no attachment whatsoever because of. I'm not you or somebody who's part of your team or whatever, you know, you're just very lucky because your surname, which is obviously your brand. Yeah, it works. It actually works. You couldn't. I go by De Burka now, which is the Irish version of my name, but my surname in English is Burke. I'm sorry, but that's not going to work, you know. [00:58:18] Speaker B: Yep. I had an employee, Michael Burke. [00:58:21] Speaker A: Okay. Yeah. [00:58:22] Speaker B: A lot of burks out there. [00:58:25] Speaker A: Yes. But it's hard. It's hardly a surname. I think it's a great example because it's such a rubber surname that you're just not going to go into a brand from there. You just can't. There's no way. It doesn't matter how talented you are. [00:58:36] Speaker B: Right. Yeah. So you're right. I'm lucky. I was able to, like, there's nobody else really with that name. And it's so funny because we did a lot of work on Marvel and there was this really old man in California and he reached out to me. He was like in his 90s and he reached out to me. He's like, my grandkids had me watch Captain America and we were in the theater and I was watching it and I saw your last name in the credits. He's like, I've never known anybody else with my last name. And he reached out and we've corresponded for a few years and I've kept in touch with his children, but I just think that that's how much pride he has. Oh, my God. Somebody worked on this big, amazing movie and they exist in the world. And, you know, part of me wanted to go on like ancestry.com and try and kind of figure it out. But yeah, you know, because there was like one of my father's uncles that kind of left and did their own thing, which was like a really weird thing. So there's another Swarovski line in the US somewhere, but so most likely it's it. [01:00:00] Speaker A: This man was connected to them. Okay. [01:00:03] Speaker B: Yeah. [01:00:03] Speaker A: Wow. Wow. Okay, well. Well, you're. You're definitely look lucky with your surname and it works perfectly for a brand. And I'm sure, as you know, it's just a matter of time before that's a world. A worldwide brand, you know. Yeah. Going. Going back to the States. Did you live at all or you just spent time in la? [01:00:23] Speaker B: I did, actually, when I was Starting the company, a lot of the work was based in la. A lot of the car work, even though it was out of Detroit, was being produced in la. A lot of the shoots were there, so I really would have had to have been there for the shoots anyway. And it was a series of them. So I rented some space out there from my friend Mark, who owns a company called Arsenal, and they did the finishing on the spots and all the flame work and very talented group of visual effects artists, and I rented some space from them, and that's really where I started the company. Even though the paperwork says long, it says Illinois. I was definitely renting space in LA to start. And then when I finished up that series of work, I came back to Chicago and my condo was. I was renting it out and it turned back over to me and I just started working out of my condo and my. My guys would come over. My kitchen table had, like four workstations on it. It was a big, round kitchen table, and we'd all sit in the round and work. It was kind of awesome. No overhead. It was incredible. And then, you know, we kept getting a little bit more work and a little bit more work, and then I was like, oh, well, maybe I can get a little space. And it really grew very organically. It wasn't forced. It wasn't like we had some big investor that was like, erin, I believe in you. I'm going to give you a couple hundred thousand dollars to grow a company. It was like, okay, we'll see how this goes. And it was pretty low stakes. My friend Tracy was looking for work for me, and I didn't need a lot to survive on, so it was just a one job at a time kind of thing, and it was no big deal. So. [01:02:14] Speaker A: What a nice way to grow. Yeah. What a natural, nice way to grow, isn't it? [01:02:18] Speaker B: Yeah. I look back and I think, wow, that's like, really courageous of me because I didn't really realize how much I had on the line, you know. Now, of course, with a family and all these employees, I'm like, oh, my God. Like, if somebody told me that this would be my responsibility now, then I think I would be like, what? Why would you do that? Why would you choose that as life? But because it grew so slowly. Even though it grew quickly, because it grew slowly, and I was able to, like, learn the expertise of running a business kind of on the fly through successes and failures. I was able to really, you know, build something that I really like with people I really like, you know, I always. Hiring is a really big deal, too. And I think, you know, having this conversation is obviously connecting a bit of the dots for me, but, like, I don't hire somebody I don't like. Right. Like, that's the key. Like, I don't care how talented somebody is. I'd rather teach somebody. Somebody that has potential and shows, has good energy and wants to be around and wants to do the work and will put in the time and effort into learning the craft and to be a teacher to them versus just bringing in somebody that's like a super pro, but they're going to make everybody's lives miserable. Like, that is not the kind of life I want to live. And that's probably why my employees like it here, is because that is a consideration. We don't just bring in. It's not about bringing in executioners. It's about bringing in people we want to be around or I want to be around. [01:04:03] Speaker A: Yeah, yeah. I mean, I totally get that. I have a couple of the people who do freelance work with us as well. With my agency side of things, it's the exact same way. I try to spot potential and spot that the energy is correct and kind of go from there, really, you know. [01:04:19] Speaker B: Yep, exactly. [01:04:21] Speaker A: So, listen, I actually realize the collaboration, from what you've been saying, is very central for you. Erin, do you think Chicago is a place that brings that out more so for you? [01:04:35] Speaker B: Yeah, I think, yeah. I mean, I definitely learned at Digital Kitchen, for sure, that it's one thing to, like, come up with a concept and to. It could be very singular experience, but to move things into production, it has to. You need all the different craftspeople to come together to make projects really amazing, and there's really no one person that can do it all. And if they say. If they say they can, then they're not a person you want to work with, because that means they've not learned how to give feedback and opinions to other people in a way that is healthy. It's just a person that wants to do it all themselves because they can't communicate to somebody what they're looking for. So. Sure. So that's like a red flag right there for anybody who's listening. That would be the thing to listen to of all the things I say. But, yeah, I mean, I just think Chicago is a community of. It's hard because, you know, there are some companies in Chicago that I would say don't have that kind of company culture, and some that do some post houses, some design companies. So I guess in any place, you can probably create the style of company that you want. If I were stuck in New York and I had to build a company in New York, I do believe I could do that. I could build a team that I felt confident in and believe from a company culture perspective would do that. I do think it would be harder. I think it would be harder because that's not like the base of where people operate from. And I do think, like the base of where people operate from in Chicago is more friendly and more collaborative than anywhere else I've ever worked in LA or New York. Yeah. [01:06:40] Speaker A: Okay, that's interesting. Now, your creative output, it blends fantasy with reality. Aaron. And you call this magic realism. Can you explain this in a bit more detail? And by any chance, does it have any roots back in your childhood? [01:06:54] Speaker B: Well, I think it comes from what we talked about with at rit, kind of experimenting with different mediums all the way back to summer camp, exposing, you know, light sensitive paper with leaves and things like that, and then going into the dark room and developing it. I. There is this thing that I like to call magic realism. I don't know if it's a real thing or not, but it. Where it looks real, aspects of it are real, but it's put together in an entirely kind of fake environment. So you'd be as if you were walking down the street and a fish swam by. Like, how is that possible? Like, it's like. But with technology I could make that happen, right? Like, I can, you know, do that. And so I think it's, it's a little bit of like that, you know, a modern dolly kind of thing where things kind of look real but they're not. And you question how it's created because it's, it's, it's so well blended together. You're like, what was shot, what wasn't shot, what was created on the computer, what you know, what's done by hand. And that's, I think, a really special place to be. And that was actually really big when I started at Digital Kitchen in the early 2000s. And a little bit went out of favor in the US for more dry comedy with less graphics. With all of that stuff. And I think it's coming back now because people just need to be one. What's funny now is super subjective. With all the stuff going on in the world, it's really hard to write scripts where humor is appreciated because humor exists in truth. And exploring the truth right now is really a challenging thing because it's funny, but also Like, a brand might not want to go there. [01:08:56] Speaker A: I know it's very tricky. [01:08:58] Speaker B: Very tricky right now. And so. And also, like, especially in the us there's this obviously extremist nationalistic sentiment going on. So unless you're Coca Cola or ge, you're not going out there saying, we're one world, man. We're happy, everybody's together. These big anthemic spots are, like, kind of going away a little bit. And so what advertisers really need to do is they need to lean into design and magic realism, I think, to move forward and to say, like, hey, live in the moment. Find happiness where you are. It could be as simple as driving your car down the street, feeling the breeze, and having these magic lines swirl around the car to a happy, upbeat song. I think that's where we're at in the world, where it's just like, let's just do little things to make us happy. And I think that's where magic realism exist. It can be storytelling, but it's also about creating a mood and a sensation and an atmosphere that can affect you emotionally. [01:10:03] Speaker A: Yeah, yeah, definitely. And your Apple piece, Erin, it represents this beautifully. [01:10:08] Speaker B: Can you. [01:10:09] Speaker A: Can you talk to a little bit about it and your process, please? [01:10:13] Speaker B: Yeah. So Apple was, like, a dream job. This piece that we're talking about, Apple came to me, and they were like, we are coming out with the new Imac Pro, and it's a computer for, like, real professional artists. It's not like the old imac, where it's the receptionist and that's it. This is, like a real professional's tool. And, of course, it had a beautiful monitor, and it was. The guts were just really there, really powerful. And to articulate it, they wanted to commission, I think it was like, six artists to create a piece on the imac, and then they would promote the imac with that piece because it was created by a professional artist on the piece. And so they asked for a little pitch about what I would do if given the opportunity to create anything on the piece, to show what a powerful tool it is. And my proposal, ultimately, it's so interesting because I was like, oh, my God, I've pitched so many great ideas. Let me go back and look for something that I pitched that I never got to execute, that I want to execute. Right? Like, whether it's stylistic or something. And I was going through literally dozens of journals at home, through sketches, through boards, through all the things. And I realized, like, oh, this is an interesting idea. Like, the idea of your book opening up and Coming to life. All these ideas that were trapped in there on the shelf just, can just explode out of it. And I was like, okay, fantastic. That's the idea, this old ratty book coming to life. And so I, we, we built a frame around that, what that could look like. And I wrote a little treatment for it. And they were like, yes, because, you know, the Apple user is very tactile. You know, we're very particular about our tools. Are it. It really matters to us what kind of pen we write with, what kind of journal we write in. Like all of those little things like really matter to us. And so this, it really connected to them. Like, yes, you can go from the outside world into the computer. And so what was cool about it is I did live action. We shot the book. So I created the book, I did all the illustrations in it and spent like two weeks creating this book nonstop. And then we filmed it with a phantom camera. So we got some really beautiful high speed stuff. And then I edited the piece and kind of put it all together with just a couple of team members here at the studio. And a lot of the illustrations were like kind of weightless. So like a lot of sea life and space stuff. And when the book opened, like an octopus, like rose out of it to life from illustrated to photo real. But it was also like in a, in a vast atmosphere, like a space like environment with like galaxies behind it and stuff like that. So it had like this really beautiful, weightless, ethereal quality to it that was really special. [01:13:26] Speaker A: Yeah, we're going to link, we're going to link some examples of your work also. Yeah. Where we're posting the podcast and I also do the transcription with visuals and so on. So people will be able to see. Yeah, people are able to see. Aaron, you know, some examples. Are there any other ones? I mean, I'm sure it's probably a struggle for you, but is there, let's say one other piece that you would like to talk about? [01:13:48] Speaker B: Yeah, I think in the magic realism territory, Dr. Strange. The work we did on Dr. Strange was extraordinary. It's all these mandalas that are gemstones and old metal kind of evolving from one mandala into another. From relatively flat to three dimensional to like multidimensional to kaleidoscopic. That really is a beautiful example of magic realism as well. [01:14:18] Speaker A: Okay, okay. So one question that comes to mind, you know, between the processes and the places, and as I said at the very beginning, we're not going to go into the, you know, down that sort of pandemic. Route, like some of the other interviews that many people are doing at the moment. But given the situation and given the collaboration and your creative processes, are you finding that you're really missing your studio? Are you dying to get back in there again or not? [01:14:53] Speaker B: I miss the studio more than anything. [01:14:56] Speaker A: Okay. [01:14:57] Speaker B: I do think that there's. To me, this pandemic is a little bit of a gift because it's the opportunity to realize, like, that I don't need the studio to survive. Right. Like, I can do it. We can do it. We can figure it out. We're really. We're makers. We're going to figure it out no matter what. So that's incredible. It's also an opportunity to spend more time with my daughter, who's very young and at a pit of it all point in her evolution because she's only three and I. Oh, okay. Yeah. So she's like a wee nugget. But so I, I think there are gifts that I want to, like, acknowledge and embrace. But I miss laughter. Everything is so serious. Like our calls. Like, everything's like, let's. Let's get the facts out. Let's give the information, you know, we need. But I miss. We would sit and do the New York Times crossword puzzle every day almost whatever we could anyway. And I miss us leaning over the table together and figuring it out. Right? Like, just talking about the words and laughing and, you know, the smarty pants is in the, in the room, just walking by, knowing the answers, all the answers all the time. It's just fun. I miss, at the end of the day, like, people sitting around and having a cocktail and laughing. And when I leave, people stay not because they're working, but because they want to. Because they genuinely enjoy each other's company and want to hang out with each other and. Or they all go out as a group together somewhere. I really, I miss the social aspect of it. I'm so proud. We can, like, do the work aspect and it's. If anything, we're even more productive not shop, considering what I just said, that we're focused on crossword puzzles and having drinks. But, but, but I miss that. I think we all really, really miss that so bad, you know, that community, because that's really what I've grown is this kind of company culture and community here. [01:17:13] Speaker A: Yeah. Yeah. So look, it's one of those things. It's great that you're able to see such positives, you know, such as being around your daughter and all that type of thing. And it's great to See that. But like you, like everybody else, I think we're all waiting for those days that nobody knows right now when they're going to come, where we can go back to some. Some of the things that we love doing, you know? [01:17:35] Speaker B: Right. I agree. I just. Yeah. It feels so far away still, but it does. [01:17:41] Speaker A: I don't. I know, I know. I know it does, Aaron. It really does. And. But yes, I did say at the beginning we're not going to go down. It's such a slippery. It's a slippery slope. Because I think the problem is people are. You know, we'll probably broadcast this the second half of March. Okay. [01:17:57] Speaker B: Right. [01:17:57] Speaker A: So hopefully, maybe things would have improved by them. But the point is people are bombarded in the media with the pandemic, and I'm trying to steer away a little bit. [01:18:06] Speaker B: Yeah. [01:18:06] Speaker A: So listen, talking about the brighter days in the future, if I was to come and visit you in Chicago, where would you say to me it would be a great place to stay to begin with? [01:18:17] Speaker B: Oh, to stay. Interesting. Like, the Soho House has a really nice setup, you know, so if you stay there, that would probably be good. It's also in the West Loop. It's not far from the office. My neighborhood has a nice, charming hotel that just opened. I'm trying to remember the name of it, but I'll send you the link. It's like a historic building, you know, and my friend, actually, it's not in Chicago, but my friend owns this camp called Camp Wanda Waga, just up above the Wisconsin border. So it's actually in Wisconsin, and that's a really fun place. So if you are by Chicago and you're really traveling from a far place, definitely hit up Camp Wanda Waga. [01:19:02] Speaker A: So describe that to me, Aaron. What is that like? [01:19:06] Speaker B: Our camp is amazing. It's. It's rustic, but also, I want to say heavy, heavily curated. I'll send you a link to it so that people can see it, but you could book it on Airbnb. [01:19:20] Speaker A: Okay. [01:19:20] Speaker B: It's. It's. It's on a lake. The lake is called Camp on the Lake, Lake Wanda. And I'm probably saying it wrong, but it's. They have all these little kind of guest houses and different kind of rooms that you can rent, whether it's a room that has other people, also, like a long cabin, or you could even rent one of the bigger houses on the property, but they have, you know, just campfires and ice skating on the lake. It's. It's like when you close your eyes and imagine Some nostalgic American camp dream from, you know, the 70s or 80s or 60s. It is that. It is exactly that. It is. It will. It will be Pinterest memories forever and. [01:20:11] Speaker A: No, that's definitely going to be on my list then. Erin. [01:20:14] Speaker B: Yeah. And you're sure you should come? Because I'll make sure you have a space there and also can visit the studio. [01:20:21] Speaker A: Okay, that sounds fantastic. So definitely. Now what about sightseeing? Like, you know, the obvious mainstream and some quirky sites if possible. [01:20:31] Speaker B: So you gotta go see the Bean downtown. It's actually called Cloudgate. It's a really good opportunity to take a weird, fun photo of yourself. A couple of museums are worth it. Like the Museum of Natural History. I like ours better than New York's. It's really cool. The dioramas and things they have there are amazing. So that's like some of the more Main street stuff. I think if you could be here for a Cubs game, that's pretty iconic, Wrigley Field, but like the less mainstream stuff is like also my neighborhood is bordered by one called Wicker park and they have some awesome just thrift shops that you could walk through, like old vintage style. It's very much like that movie High Fidelity. That's exactly the location. And it's, it's a little bit been co opted by, you know, the soccer moms pushing strollers, but it still has some of that, like authentic, you know, original kind of hipster vibe too. So that's kind of cool. [01:21:38] Speaker A: Okay, cool. What about going out to eat? Is there some special place that will be like at the top of your list, you know, to bring? Yeah, tell me. [01:21:47] Speaker B: Oh, yeah. I mean like the food scene in Chicago is amazing. So there are a ton of places and everybody that hears what the place I'm going to recommend is going to laugh at me. But I love this place called Duck, Duck Goat. It's this chef, Stephanie Izard. She has a kind of a Chinese restaurant and I love it because it's family style. Again, post pandemic where you have the lazy Susan and everybody eats out of, you know, takes. It's all family style. So everybody shares and you just order a bunch of stuff. And it's really like a very eclectically designed, beautiful place that has to be, has to be seen. She also has, you know, her regular restaurant called called the Girl and the Goat. But I, I'm like so on board with Duck Duck Goat. It's way cooler. [01:22:36] Speaker A: Okay, that sounds great. That sounds great. Okay, so listen, that's, that's the trip to Chicago organized as soon as it's possible. What are you currently working on, Aaron? [01:22:49] Speaker B: Oh my God. So many amazing things. One thing that's about to come out that we're done with is a movie called Cherry that the Russo brothers directed. [01:23:00] Speaker A: Okay. [01:23:01] Speaker B: I just, I want to say right now I think it's going to win best Picture Oscar. And if it doesn't. And if it doesn't, it should have and they were robbed. But it's literally the most extraordinary movie I've ever seen in my life. And to have been a part of helping make it is. Is like a career highlight. They there's exceptional typography throughout the movie and they really think about design and you know, I just love them and I love it. And I think it's not only like a well crafted movie that people are going to be studying like as part of their film education. I think it's going to say something in the world and do something in the world and I'll just like leave it at that. It's going to be out on Apple tv. Plus it was it like March, early March, so. Okay. And if I don't know, there's going to be a limited release in theaters. If you can see it in the theater, I would suggest just because the visuals are so stunning and I think that will be an amazing experience just physically to be in, but. So I'm really proud of that. But we're also working on a television show, main title called the Mosquito Post. That is really cool. That's with Justin Theroux and also a really. Neil Cross created it and I believe wrote all of it or some of it. It's different how like the writing credits go. But he is the mastermind behind it and he was like a real treasure to work with. Real fun, amazing guy. What's been great about the Pandemic is that instead of just having calls with people, you have zoom calls. So all you would have never really, really met. You've seen their faces and their homes and their bedrooms and all those like weird stuff. It's like truly incredible experience. So I will say I appreciate that about it. Like people are so desperate to see people that we're doing all these weird zoom calls. And that's become a big part of our lives. I know as a way of connecting and then. Yeah. And you know, we just released a big campaign for bank of America with a lot of beautiful motion graphics that I'm really proud of. And it's definitely not magic realism. It's rooted in motion Design. But I think the look, the precision of the animation, and, you know, the agency had created these amazing brand standards, like, much more than you could ever imagine, so that there was, like, a real craftsmanship that went into it on their side. So for us, it was about making sure that all of those standards were elevated and not just kind of adhered to, you know, so that was a really, really cool job and they were really amazing, thoughtful people to work with. So that's going to start releasing all over the TV and interwebs and platforms and places, if it hasn't already. What else? I feel like we've just been so, so, so busy, which is great. [01:26:11] Speaker A: I mean, yeah, I saw. I saw, obviously, in your chat with the guys, you know, that there was a worrying time. I mean, I think everybody in business. Not everybody, that's an exaggeration, but many people in business went through that initial shock, you know, last year. But, you know, in your case, you. You've totally, totally gone to. Been really busy. [01:26:31] Speaker B: Yeah. So, like, initially it was. It was just like everything we had in the pipeline went away. Like, every company just stopped. And we were. I really was just like, okay, is this the end? Like, is it over? Like, because of course, I can't have people on board if there's no work, like, at all. And, you know, we were finishing a couple of big campaigns, and, you know, there was like a month where we were just like, okay, well, we at least have to finish up this work and transition everybody to work from home. And hopefully by the time we have nothing going on, something will have come up and something did, you know, and then another something did. And then everybody realized, like, oh, we have to still be communicating on behalf of our clients, and we cannot be shooting. And we need people we trust that we've worked with in the past. So all of my clients, like, kept reaching out to me, like, hey, what can you do with this, this and this? And we would be really thoughtful about it and be really realistic about it. And. And again, like, the community and partnership is always what I've been about and been into growing. So when people. I would say, like, no, no, no, we can't do that. Like, don't promise that. Like, promise this. They'd be like, okay, great. Like, they just knew that there's, like, a deep honesty to how I work and, you know, ultimately want them to succeed as well. It's not just about making us look good. It's about making everybody look good. And it's not just about getting the money in the Door and keeping the business alive as it's making sure, like, we can execute what we're talking about and all of that. But yeah, so, I mean, yeah, slowly it was just like, okay, we got this one thing that'll keep us going for a month. And then another thing came up and that was like, okay, that's another month. And then all of a sudden all of these people were like, okay, so. And so had to pivot. So we have to do this Boost campaign completely differently. So can you do this Boost campaign? And that. That became enormous. And so. And then it kind of grew exponentially from there. So we wound up having, like, you know, a really, really decent year and additionally, like, employing people, employing a lot of people, like, from a freelance perspective. And we've also been able to change the business a little bit so that if somebody isn't feeling well, they're not just going to come to work, they can just work from home that day. Like, yeah, you know, or if we have a new mom and something's going on, she can work from home that day. Like, there's so much more flexibility to how businesses are operating now that I think it's going to change our thinking forever. About. [01:29:15] Speaker A: I think so, and I really hope so for. For so many people, you know, I mean, like yourself, I'm the boss of my own. Of my own business. But, you know, for those people who aren't. They're. They're subjected to the way of thinking of other people. So I really hope it does, you know. [01:29:30] Speaker B: Yep, yep, Exactly. [01:29:32] Speaker A: So listen, one last question, Aaron. Apart from, you know, getting back into the studio and having that fun with, you know, with your crew, are there any particular places or place that you really long to go back to spend time in again? [01:29:51] Speaker B: You know, I miss. [01:29:52] Speaker A: Or for the first time, even. [01:29:54] Speaker B: Yeah, well, I mean, for the first time, I've been dying to go to Iceland. [01:29:58] Speaker A: Yeah. [01:29:59] Speaker B: Yeah. Oh, my God, I've been dying to go there. I've been also really itching to go to Scotland. I have a good friend that lives in Edinburgh and my husband's family is from there, so that would be a fun trip to do. But I think it's the simple things. Like, while I don't like, necessarily want to live in New York or la, I have so many friends there now, like clients and friends that I've just been longing to see. Typically, after a big job, I'd make a trip out and we'd go for dinner and celebrate the success with them, and I'm missing all of that. So I think my first trip would be probably to see my good friend Judy up in Connecticut, where me and my husband were married, right by her house and just spend a little time up there with her. Is very similar to the Poconos, except a little bit more hoity toity, a little bit more curated. But you're out in the mountains, in the fresh air, all of that. I do miss that because being in Chicago, it is still a city, and so we haven't really had the opportunity to be out in the middle of nowhere. I miss, you know, la. I miss going out there and having fantastic dinners with. With my friends like Tom and Kevin from Lionsgate, and just catching up with everybody. Like, I. I'm one of those people that definitely craves seeing people in person and giving them the attention that they deserve. You know, what I've been trying to do is, like, when I think of somebody, send them a text, send them a photo, send them something that lets them know I'm thinking of them. Because that's not something I typically do. Right. Like, I'm normally, like, I'll. I'll schedule time to be with that person when it's appropriate, when I'm there, when I'm around. But that, like, I'm not, like, just like a quick communicator like that. So I've been. I'm hoping the pandemic changes me forever in that way where it's like, oh, this reminded me of you, and then just send it out. But I do miss that. So I think, you know, I want to go to San Francisco. A friend of mine just opening up a restaurant there, and I can't wait to have dinner out there and take a new friend, Albert, to dinner there. So that's going to be fun. Just like, again, it's. Is it really the place or is it the people that makes it? [01:32:16] Speaker A: There you go. Yeah, it is. It's a bit of a chicken. A chicken and egg situation, I think, for me. [01:32:24] Speaker B: Absolutely. Yeah. [01:32:26] Speaker A: Okay. Well, listen, it's been an absolute pleasure, Aaron. Thank you so much for taking the time and also for being the launch guest for the series number two, which is into the West. Yeah, into the West. We go with Erin. [01:32:45] Speaker B: Well, I look forward to meeting you in person one day. I'm sure it will happen. [01:32:50] Speaker A: Definitely. Same. I'm exactly like yourself in that sense of, you know, it's all about people and contact and all of that sort of stuff, and it's just not. Not easy. But we have better days ahead at some stage, obviously. Erin. [01:33:04] Speaker B: Oh, I totally agree. I totally agree. [01:33:07] Speaker A: We hope you've enjoyed today's episode of Creative Places and Faces. We look forward to bringing you more creative insights into places around the world very soon.